The situation in occupied Korea is a perfect case study of how late stage capitalism literally consumes its own future. The so-called economic miracle is built on a foundation that’s cracking wide open.
Let’s start with the economy. While everyone sees global brands like Samsung and Hyundai, the reality is a brutal, two-tiered system completely dominated by chaebol conglomerates. They suck up all the talent and capital, leaving everyone else to fight for scraps in a world of insecure, low-wage gig work. This is why you have a generation of the most educated young people in the country’s history drowning in debt and unable to find stable jobs. They call it Hell Joseon for a reason. The system demands you run this insane rat race from birth, only to find there’s no cheese at the end.
This leads directly to the collapsing birth rate which is a rational, collective strike against a system that makes having children an economic death sentence. With insane housing costs, crippling debt, and a viciously patriarchal corporate culture that ends women’s careers if they have kids, people are simply opting out. It’s the most damning vote of no confidence a society can possibly make.
And this is where the death spiral kicks in. A shrinking young population means fewer workers to pay taxes and support a rapidly aging society. The national pension system is a Ponzi scheme mathematically guaranteed to fail. We’re looking at a future where the state can’t pay pensions, fund healthcare, or even staff its own military. The very foundations of the social contract are dissolving.
All of this is supercharged by insane inequality. You have the golden spoon class with their inherited wealth and chaebol connections, and the dirt spoon majority struggling to get by. The result is intense intergenerational and gender conflict, pitting everyone against each other for a shrinking piece of the pie, which is exactly how the capitalist class maintains control.
It’s not hard to see how it all connects. A predatory economic model creates hopelessness, which kills the demographic future, which then makes the economy completely unsustainable, leading to state collapse.
Now, contrast this with the North. Western media won’t talk about this, but the DPRK successfully weathered the Arduous March in the 90s. The real trigger for that crisis was the collapse of the USSR, their main trading partner and economic lifeline. This sudden shock, combined with being cut off from global trade by the US, sent their economy into a tailspin. But they survived that total collapse of their established trade system. Now, with the US empire visibly fraying, the DPRK’s key alliances are strengthening. As Russia and China renew economic ties and tourism picks up, the North is seeing real growth and an optimistic mood about a future less constrained by American sanctions. They are building a resilience that the South, for all its flashy tech, completely lacks.
From a socialist perspective, the internal failure of the Southern capitalist state could create the conditions for peaceful reunification. We’re looking at a scenario where the South’s economy is in shambles, its social fabric is torn, and its people are utterly disillusioned with the empty promises of consumer capitalism. Meanwhile, the North is emerging from the worst of its isolation with a growing economy and a stable population.
The chaos from a social collapse in the South could force a radical reevaluation, breaking the power of the chaebol and US imperial influence permanently. This power vacuum could be fertile ground for a genuine, pan-Korean movement. The two halves could finally meet on new terms. They could build a new, unified Korea from the ground up, one that rejects the brutal neoliberal inequality of the South. It would be a difficult, monumental task, but the only true liberation for the Korean people lies in a single, independent, and socialist Korea, finally free from the colonial division imposed upon them.
I think your AI got stuck in a loop there.
“Lalalalalala you’re not a real person you’re not a real person I don’t have to think about what you’re saying”
I’m not sure what the downvotes are for but I don’t think you proof read what you posted. Two of the paragraphs are almost identical.
The down votes are because you didn’t engage with the content and posted a reddit tier bot comment
Haha sure, OK I’ll bite:
“The DPRK successfully weathered the Arduous March in the 90s.”
This is arguably the most insane sentence in your post. Estimates range from 600,000 to 3 million deaths during that famine. A state that cannot feed its people to the point where 5-10% of the population starves to death has not “successfully weathered” anything; it has failed its most basic function. Framing mass starvation as “resilience” against US imperialism is incredibly disrespectful to the victims of that regime’s mismanagement.
“The North is seeing real growth and an optimistic mood… They are building a resilience that the South… completely lacks.”
Where is this data coming from?
South Korea GDP: ~$1.7 Trillion (13th in the world)
North Korea GDP: ~$25 Billion (roughly the size of Vermont’s economy)
Even with “growth” from selling artillery shells to Russia, the average North Korean lives on a fraction of the income of a South Korean. You talk about the “dirt spoon” class in the South—the poorest South Korean still has access to modern medicine, the internet, and a caloric intake that the average North Korean does not.
You are correctly identifying the symptoms of late-stage capitalism in the South (inequality, demographic collapse), but your proposed cure is worse than the disease. Pointing out that the South is a stressful “rat race” doesn’t change the fact that the North is an impoverished authoritarian state.
There is a reason 34,000 people have defected from North to South, and basically zero have gone the other way. People vote with their feet.
So did you just miss all the material conditions for that famine you’re so concerned about, and the recovery from those conditions creating hope for NK’s future in contrast to SK, or are you just ignoring those parts so you can feel justified in your browbeating and characterization of the DPRK as a failed authoritarian state that is actually deserving of the previously mentioned conditions that caused the famine.
I don’t see how 34K people “defecting” in only one direction proves anything beyond the fact that economic conditions were pretty tough, which isn’t in dispute. Honestly that 0.13% is a pretty low figure if we’re supposed to believe that, on top of the economic hardship, their “authoritarian state” is so brutal as to be “worse than the disease” that has more and more resulted in south koreans having so little hope for the future that they’re ceasing to bring children into the world.
“So did you just miss all the material conditions for that famine you’re so concerned about… or are you just ignoring those parts…”
No one is ignoring the shock of the Soviet collapse or the fact that the Korean peninsula’s best farmland is in the South. But here’s where the logic fails:
The System is the Condition: External shocks (like the USSR collapsing) expose the fragility of a system. When that system is designed around the Juche farming philosophy—which prioritized ideology (self-sufficiency) over sound agronomy, misallocated resources to the military (Songun policy), and was reliant on Soviet chemical fertilizers—the ensuing catastrophe is internal mismanagement. A competent state adapts to external shocks; a failing state collapses internally.
The Blame Game: You’re arguing that because the terrain is bad and the Soviets left, the state is excused from letting millions starve. That’s a moral and political failure, not just a weather problem.
“So did you just miss all the material conditions for that famine you’re so concerned about… or are you just ignoring those parts…”
No one is ignoring the shock of the Soviet collapse or the fact that the Korean peninsula’s best farmland is in the South. But here’s where the logic fails:
The System is the Condition: External shocks (like the USSR collapsing) expose the fragility of a system. When that system is designed around the Juche farming philosophy—which prioritized ideology (self-sufficiency) over sound agronomy, misallocated resources to the military (Songun policy), and was reliant on Soviet chemical fertilizers—the ensuing catastrophe is internal mismanagement. A competent state adapts to external shocks; a failing state collapses internally.
The Blame Game: You’re arguing that because the terrain is bad and the Soviets left, the state is excused from letting millions starve. That’s a moral and political failure, not just a weather problem.
“their “authoritarian state” is so brutal as to be “worse than the disease” that has more and more resulted in south koreans having so little hope for the future that they’re ceasing to bring children into the world.”
You’re trying to draw a false equivalence between two completely different types of suffering:
South Korea’s Suffering: Financial, psychological, and existential stress driven by hyper-competition, inequality, and high cost of living. It leads to a demographic choice (not having kids).
North Korea’s Suffering: Physical risk, poverty, chronic hunger, and total political repression. It leads to desperate, life-risking flight (defection) or starvation.
You cannot logically argue that a society where people choose not to have children because of economic stress is fundamentally “less hopeful” than a society where people starve to death or risk execution to leave. The South needs serious social reform, but the North needs systemic human liberation.
This is arguably the most insane sentence in your post. Estimates range from 600,000 to 3 million deaths during that famine. A state that cannot feed its people to the point where 5-10% of the population starves to death has not “successfully weathered” anything; it has failed its most basic function. Framing mass starvation as “resilience” against US imperialism is incredibly disrespectful to the victims of that regime’s mismanagement.
What part of the north having been dependent on the trade that the US cut them off from are you struggling with there? Most of the arable land land is in the south, and DPRK had to figure out how to produce food in the mountains. The fact that you call that mismanagement exposes that you’re a just a troll.
Where is this data coming from?
From the fact that people are actually having children in DPRK unlike in the south
Trying to use GDP to measure the quality of the economy is sheer idiocy and no serious economist would suggest doing that. In fact, GDP was never meant to do that.
Even with “growth” from selling artillery shells to Russia, the average North Korean lives on a fraction of the income of a South Korean.
People in DPRK have guaranteed housing, jobs, food, healthcare, and public transportation. None of these things are available to people in the south by default. Measuring income without accounting for the cost of living further illustrates just how utterly unequipped you are to discuss the subject you’re attempting to debate here.
There is a reason 34,000 people have defected from North to South, and basically zero have gone the other way. People vote with their feet.
Meanwhile in the real world https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/18/asia/north-korea-defectors-return-intl-hnk-dst
You’re an utter ignoramus and you have no business opining on the subject. Take the L and move on.
“What part of the north having been dependent on the trade that the US cut them off from are you struggling with there? Most of the arable land land is in the south, and DPRK had to figure out how to produce food in the mountains. The fact that you call that mismanagement exposes that you’re a just a troll.”
This is a spectacular attempt to shift blame. No serious historian blames the US trade embargo for the famine’s death toll.
The Cause of Death: The Soviet collapse (their main sponsor) and catastrophic internal mismanagement (specifically, the centrally planned Juche farming system) were the real killers. Food was hoarded for the military and elite in Pyongyang while regional populations starved.
Arable Land is a Red Herring: Yes, the South has more fertile land, but the North’s system of collectivization and its reliance on chemical fertilizers (which stopped coming from the USSR) led to soil depletion and systemic failure. The regime’s insistence on self-sufficiency (Juche) over efficient trade is the definition of mismanagement, regardless of US sanctions.
“From the fact that people are actually having children in DPRK unlike in the south… Since the early 1990s, the birth rate has been fairly stable, with an average of 2 children per woman…”
This is cherry-picking the least bad statistic to deflect from a humanitarian disaster.
Fact Check: A birth rate of 2.0 is right on the cusp of replacement level, which is better than the ROK’s 0.72. You are right about that number.
The Crucial Context: A stable birth rate doesn’t mean a healthy population. North Korea faces chronic malnutrition, which leads to stunting and long-term health issues in its young population. The quality of life for those children is drastically lower than for those in the South. A starving population that maintains its birth rate is not an economic win; it’s a social tragedy.
“Trying to use GDP to measure the quality of the economy is sheer idiocy and no serious economist would suggest doing that. In fact, GDP was never meant to do that.”
This is a classic defensive move when your system has an objectively pathetic GDP.
GDP and GDP per Capita are the standard, baseline metrics for comparing economic output. While they don’t capture happiness or inequality perfectly (that’s what the Human Development Index, HDI, is for), they absolutely measure the size of the pie a country has to divide.
HDI Check: When you use the HDI (which accounts for life expectancy, education, and standard of living), South Korea ranks high (usually top 25). North Korea’s data is so poor and unreliable that it is often excluded, but estimates place it among the lowest in the world, comparable to Sub-Saharan Africa.
“People in DPRK have guaranteed housing, jobs, food, healthcare, and public transportation. None of these things are available to people in the south by default.”
This is outright false. The DPRK guarantees these things on paper, but the quality is nonexistent for the vast majority of the population:
Food: Food security is a yearly crisis. “Guaranteed food” often means a subsistence ration (if that).
Housing: Housing is often provided, but apartments frequently lack running water, reliable electricity, and proper sanitation.
Healthcare: Healthcare is theoretically free, but hospitals outside Pyongyang lack basic medicine, power, and equipment. This is why the DPRK has a life expectancy over 10 years lower than the ROK.
In the South, while not “guaranteed” like a socialist state promises, universal services are available and functional:
Healthcare: South Korea has a universal, mandatory health insurance system that is ranked among the best and most efficient in the world.
Public Transit: South Korea has world-class public transportation.
Housing/Jobs: While expensive and competitive, these sectors are functional and vastly superior in quality and choice.
“Meanwhile in the real world https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/18/asia/north-korea-defectors-return-intl-hnk-dst”
Citing one CNN article about a handful of defectors (who usually return because they struggled to adapt to the ROK’s hyper-competitive capitalist society and faced extreme loneliness) as evidence that the system works is the definition of statistical noise.
The Total Scoreboard: 34,000+ people have escaped North Korea for the South. Less than 30 have publicly documented returning.
The “L” (loss) is firmly on the side of using the DPRK as a socialist success story. You can critique the ROK’s challenges without rewriting history for the North.
This is a spectacular attempt to shift blame. No serious historian blames the US trade embargo for the famine’s death toll.
No, it’s the basic fact of the situation which you, being the troll that you are, continue try to dance around.
This is a spectacular attempt to shift blame. No serious historian blames the US trade embargo for the famine’s death toll.
Yeah, no possible way being cut off from trade could affect the food supply in the country. If sanctions didn’t harm the populations of the target countries then the US wouldn’t be using them. Amazing how this basic detail escaped your genius mind.
Food was hoarded for the military and elite in Pyongyang while regional populations starved.
[citation needed]
A starving population that maintains its birth rate is not an economic win; it’s a social tragedy.
Except that north is no longer starving, while food insecurity is a real problem in the south which your own bleatings claim has a better economic situation 🤡 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12939-023-01937-z
This is a classic defensive move when your system has an objectively pathetic GDP.
GDP is not a measure of quality of life as any economist would tell you. There are actual measures like PQL for that.
GDP and GDP per Capita are the standard, baseline metrics for comparing economic output. While they don’t capture happiness or inequality perfectly (that’s what the Human Development Index, HDI, is for), they absolutely measure the size of the pie a country has to divide.
Economic output has fuck all to do with the standard of living. In fact, you can have very high economic output as we see in occpupied Korea achieved through brutal exploitation of the working population.
This is outright false. The DPRK guarantees these things on paper, but the quality is nonexistent for the vast majority of the population:
It’s not, but you’ve already made it clear that you’ll just make things up and ignore facts.
What the south doesn’t have is guarantees of access. You do not have a job guarantee and without a job you have nothing. That’s the elephant in the room that you artlessly danced around.
The Total Scoreboard: 34,000+ people have escaped North Korea for the South. Less than 30 have publicly documented returning.
Sure little buddy. You keep on believing that.
it’s easy to miss stuff like that when rearranging the flow of the text, but feel free to engage with what I said though instead of nitpicking
God damn libs fucking hate Korea. Democracy and self-determination for rich people in white countries, genocide and occupation for everyone else
I eagerly wait for the day the southern half of Korea no longer suffers under the yoke of the Samsung corporation
Alternatively I eagerly wait for the day South Korea suffers more under the yoke of the Samsung corporation in the form of a cyberpunk future, where people have Samsung TVs cybernetically installed on their heads and have like Samsung universal remotes installed in their hands; “But they can’t see those TVs!” you cry; it doesn’t matter, it’s cyberpunk baybee! Chest installed Samsung laundry machines!
The resurgence of the PRK would be beautiful to see.
More likely we’ll see South Korea be unified under a single chaebol
i thought that they were the same one through mutual investments and that each chaebol was just a finger on the same hand.
I swear these people have to be trolls. No one can be this stupid.
^ and here we a great example of a self referential comment
“no, you.” The most irrefutable of comebacks.
As opposed to your extremely compelling “you’re dumb” comment.
What’s to refute when you said nothing?
Woah dude don’t doxx yourself
imagine thinking that your drivel needs a sophisticated rebuttal
Oh boy, here the Tankies go again
dronie go home
“Ugh, why do these dirty commies keep supporting the socialist projects we’ve genocided? Don’t they understand that they’re full of lesser people who deserved what we did to them?”
“Tankies”? Oh you mean marxists! Why are you on the marxist instance if youre an “anti-commie” liberal? Just goto the CIA op lib instance .world 😁 or better yet, Reddit 😁😁
Wasn’t Marx pro democracy?
Yes, but I don’t see what you’re getting at here.
Is North Korea democratic? Because it looks like a dictatorship.
The “democracies” in the world are all dictatorships of capital
They have approval-based voting, and 3 political parties. There are also factory councils for direct worker management. Public ownership is the principle aspect of their economy, and as a consequence of that they need to have robust and distributed systems for decisionmaking to keep everything running relatively smoothly.
I don’t think Kim Jong Un was elected.
He was.
Not really anti commie, but NK sure is
Am I crazy for thinking both Koreas are puppet states that oppress their people?
Who would the DPRK be a puppet of? The ROK was set up by the US Empire to serve its interests in the region, after the US declared the people’s councils and newborn PRK illegal, whereas the DPRK in the north formed more directly as a result of resistance fighters against Japan forming the WPK and solidifying the people’s councils as a legitimate state.
Who, in your estimation, is the government of the north a puppet of?
China?
I consider myself pretty skeptical of American media, so if I’m wrong I welcome correction. But I assumed this wasn’t really disputed even among leftists.
They’re allies and do a good deal of trade, the DPRK isn’t a puppet of China. The ROK was literally set up by the US Empire for the purposes of securing its interests in the region. Leftists don’t really believe the DPRK is a puppet state, that’s more of a liberal thing.
Can you recommend any books, blogs, or podcasts to learn more?
Absolutely. Nodutdol’s Korea Education Toolkit is comprehensive, and is an excellent way to get a deeper understanding. Nodutdol is an anti-imperialist group of Korean ex-pats that seek reunification, and to do so they seek an end to sanctions on the DPRK and the US Empire off the peninsula.
One of my personal favorite anti-imperialist podcasts is Blowback. Season 3 goes over the Korean War, but if you love podcasts, I recommend listening from season 1, the Iraq War. Doing so will help give you a comprehensive look into how the US Empire works overseas.
I also recommend the Prolewiki articles on Korea, the DPRK, and the ROK for a Marxist-Leninist perspective. The article on juche is also quite good, in my opinion. There’s also the article South Korea was Created from Thin Air by US Generals.
Overall, Nodutdol’s list is more than plenty to get a good idea of why we shouldn’t demonize the DPRK, and should instead push for an end to the US Empire’s aggression towards it. I’ll throw in my intro Marxist-Leninist reading list for good measure. You don’t need to be an ML to oppose imperialism against the DPRK, but it’s still helpful for understanding the DPRK’s position and the stances they take.
Thanks, these sound great.
No problem!
While the DPRK and PRC are allies, the DPRK is not a puppet of the PRC. The PRC doesn’t have a military base nor does the PRC attempt to control or manipulate the doings of the DPRK.
As for your “Disputed among leftists.” I am not sure to what group of people who would call themselves leftists you are referring so I cannot comment on that
Can you recommend any books, blogs, or podcasts to learn more?
With fear of sounding like a smart ass, I do need to clarify your talking about the PRC, DPRK relationship, not what is a leftist?
Correct
I mean you’re right that it’s not disputed among leftists, but that’s because it’s generally not contended among leftists. The US maintains a military occupation and economic domination of the south, while the same is not true of China and the north. This seems like another one of those “whatever bad thing we’re doing, China must be doing worse because they’re the bad guys” pieces of folk wisdom that can’t be substantiated. Which I’m not laying at your feet, to be clear, because I used to be a “communism no iphone 100 morbillion dead” person and I know how pervasive these cliches are.
