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Both things can be true.
One step at a time.Yeah, splitting up isn’t a great thing right now. Let’s team up together and fight the nazis.
Im willing to work with anyone who has a real backbone and is acturally willing to fight fascism. People who reject all fascism even a compromised fascism lite.
It’s almost like some people here desperately want to create division in the left.
Glad to see it backfiring on one post.
You’re the only person in here talking about splitting up?
Let’s just make sure when this is over, that actual leftists are put in charge so we don’t get a repeat of this in 20 years.
Let’s just make sure when this is over, that actual leftists are put in charge
Leftist don’t want to get organized to be a third party or vote as left as they can in major parties. They won’t be in charge because they don’t want to be engaged.
People who are not represented by the two party system are disenfranchised by First-past-the-post voting.
Electoral Reform Videos
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems
Dude, the leftists shitting on liberals thing is extremely strong around here. You would think the only enemy in sight is the Democratic Party to hear some tell it. Oh look, here comes someone right now to do exactly that!
The Democratic Party is the insidious great apologizer for Capital. The Democrat Party funds the wars, were the original kings of “mass deportation”, and have been the architects of numerous an austerity policy that has betrayed and immiserated the working class.
The Democratic Party is the more advanced villain, as they wrap their rhetoric in the language of moralism to make them immune to criticism from more “left wing” moralizers. Which is why many are stuck arguing to death in petty fights with the rhetoric of reform and moralism of the Left Wing of Capital while the republicans are more openly evil who are easy to dismiss and not argue with.
Only through recognizing both the Democratic and Republican party as institutions of class control will you ever make progress.
Yes Dems are antilib/antileft as well
Well then maybe the Democratic party should stop supporting the Facsists, and should start fighting against them.
Shitlibs can’t do anything but blame the left for their failures and deny we exist. And suck Nazi dick. They can fall in line or fuck off–if a shitlib wants to volunteer as a warm body for something I’m doing without trying to subvert it I won’t turn them away, but I doubt that would happen–i have seen zero interest in coalitions or opposing fascism.
Please feel free to prove me wrong.
Can you kindly provide some examples of what you’re talking about?
of a thing not happening? um, sure; here i guess.
Great! Can you please explain some of the specific things you are doing? You mentioned this in your previous comment. Specifically the part about coalitions and such.
can you explain
No, sorry.
They can fall in line or fuck off–if a shitlib wants to volunteer as a warm body for something I’m doing without trying to subvert it I won’t turn them away
Cool! Was this just a lie then?
What they were trying to say is now is not the time to divide eachother
Cool maybe they should fall in line then.
OR maybe you should team up on the incremental progress for now, and then show them why more work is needed. You don’t need to be the divisive one.
Weird how ‘compromise to a common end’ always means ‘do my thing and ignore that other thing and also ignore what you wanted’.
Why are you pretending like that’s what they said? One concept is a progression of the same idea but taken beyond the other one - you’re just claiming it’s not because you want to be divisive and pretend like you’re holding the morally correct position to trigger people.
It’s transparent and like… nobody seems to be taking the bait, so why are you even still trying?
Some of the people you see that are dumping on any incremental progress are pro-authoritarian, accelerationists. I believe most of those ones are bad actors/bots though. Any real leftist is wanting to help people however they can/actively helping those in their communities.
People aren’t dumping on incremental progress, largely. The issue is that there has been nobody in power meaningfully working on or achieving that incremental progress. The Democrats just gaslight everybody into thinking they are working towards the incremental progress that we hope for and expect from them, while being blind to the problems and solutions.
Progressives are the ones who are disenfranchised, alienated, and ratfucked - it’s time for you to realize that.
I don’t need to prove you wrong, I just need to sit back and watch your every effort come to nothing. Proceed!
I can’t tell if this is a bit.
Walking in the direction of only one.
Because the other is merely a stop on the way.If you don’t strive for the best option, you’ll settle for compromise.
That’s what politics is, compromise. That’s why “they” say to shoot for the biggest thing you want, because half way there is still better than when you first started.
damn right. in the US, performing labor is seen as more important than human life. that tells you a lot.
Liberals: Works 40 hours a week.
Leftists: Whines 40 hours a week without working.
Oh wow, I didn’t know you were a socialist! The USSR famously had 40 hour working week and there was 0% unemployment rate. I’m glad to see more people supporting socialism <3
Conservative weirdo says what, what are you work-maxed
If taking care of a family, working, and not demanding entitlements without putting any effort into anything like the billionaires and bottom feeders makes me conservative then I guess I’m conservative, even though I’d rather see conservatives thrown into the everglades one by one.
Seriously though, what have you actually contributed to society other than Lemmy platitudes?
Ok. Brevity is the source of wit, so what were you saying again🫣🫣🫣
I feel like you hear the top line because those specific liberals are trying to convince independents, moderates, conservatives, and people on the right to agree on at least something. Many of the people they’re trying to convince would give a big “NO” if they didn’t include that 40 hours part.
The fact that there isn’t even a “YES” with the 40 hours part caveat is the bad sign.
I don’t think most of the people labeled as liberals would disagree with what the people labeled leftist are saying, but their trying to convince the other people that aren’t even bought in to the first step.
This is also an issue where the people that don’t want to help others have over 50% of the power in the US federal government currently.
Our energy should be focused on bringing these progressive help options to everyone at the state level right now to have the greatest chance of getting these programs implemented.
I am a Leftist and agree with the Leftists take but the Liberal in this meme has a more effective message. The majority of people have issues neurologically with truly caring about things they can’t at least imagine affecting them and there are a huge number of people working their asses off 40+ hours a week while struggling to get by. Not that we should abandon the elderly or disabled but we should be diverse in our messaging and who it targets.
The leftists have the easiest message, it’s provide for everyone. It can literally effect anyone.
The liberal messaging muddies the message up, making it unimaginable that it could effect people outside of the narrow scope it presents
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I do wish the left broadly could unify under the idea that we need to make incremental progress.
A lot of people on this very site think there’s going to be a glorious people’s revolution any day now. I could spend hours describing how unrealistic that fantasy is, but I think more people rather live with their indulgent fantasies than go out and plant trees that they will never sit in the shade of.
Oh man am I ever with you. I’m absolutely an idealist, I agree with the OP’s sentiment. But I will absolutely support anyone with any ideology that gets us closer. Small steps are easier to take, this bullshit that everyone thinks we need the perfect candidate with the one weird trick.
See what that got us. I have no goddamned idea where to go from here. I’ll support any ham sandwich that drags us in the right direction.
Are you aware of how many people starved when farms were collectivized in the Soviet Union?
It is possible to improve on the methods and priorities of previous attempts.
The problem with the previous attempts was prioritizing ideology over real life problems. Doesn’t sound like socialists are capable of understanding why that’s a problem because they believe that conforming to ideology will magically solve all problems. Just like they believed that in the Soviet Union… which is what caused the famines.
The problem with the previous attempts was prioritizing ideology over real life problems
It was actually not the case, the USSR was the most materialist and least idealist country. The 1929 collectivization drive was kicked together with the first 5-year economic plan of the Soviet Union, which drove a growth of 10%+ in economic output YEARLY during the following decade. This was a necessary preparation measure against the constant threat of external invasion for the sin of being communist, as demonstrated during the Russian Civil War when the Reds were invaded by England, France, the USA, Italy, France and Germany, all of whom helped the Whites in hopes of restoring absolutist monarchy and the Russian Empire. Stalin famously gave a speech in 1931 saying that the USSR was 50-100 years behind in industrialization and they had 10 years to make up for it or they would be crushed. 10 years later, Nazis invaded the Soviet Union.
If it hadn’t been for the industrial boom made possible by the rapid collectivization of agriculture, the Soviets would have lost to the Nazis, leading to the extermination of tens of millions of Eastern Europeans according to the Generalplan Ost, ideologically very similar to the contemporary genocide of Palestinians by Isn’treal as an attempt of settler colonialism. Additionally, the industrialization led to the total elimination of famine in a formerly backwater feudal Russian Empire, raising the life expectancy from about 30 years in the 1920s to 60+ years by 1955.
There were mistakes and failures in the collectivization policy which led to a degree of unnecessary suffering, but these weren’t due to idealism, Marxist-Leninists are fundamentally materialist in their analysis which is the polar opposite of idealism, they were the consequence of lack of knowledge and of hurries to do the first successful complete collectivization of land of a nation in human history.
So you’re saying it’s fine that 8 million people starved because ideological bullshit goals were achieved? Fucking commie Marie Antoinette over here. Let them eat ideology!
So you’re saying it’s fine that 8 million people starved because ideological bullshit goals were achieved?
Not because ideological goals were achieved. If you read my comment you’ll see I’m concerned with material outcomes. Eliminating Nazism saved tens of millions of lives. Industrializing the Soviet Union eliminated hunger and gave universal healthcare, saving tens of millions of lives. Compare the life expectancy of the USSR in 1929 with that of Brazil 1929 (countries with similar level of development) and you’ll see that the rapid industrialization by the 1970s had led to such massive improvements of life expectancy that tens of millions of lives were saved in comparison with Brazil, no other country industrialized so quickly up to that point in history. I care about saving tens of millions of lives, yes, and you’re also inflating the number of deaths from starvation
This is a fallacy. You’re assuming only socialism in Russia could’ve lead to the defeat of the Nazis. I’m explaining the Nazis were stupid (as all fascists are) and their defeat was inevitable, but you’re completely what I’m saying. You’re also ignoring that fact that socialism is not required for a country to industrialize.
This is something like the anthropic principle. Just because it went A -> B -> C doesn’t mean it’s not possible to get to C any other way. Socialism is not a requirement for industrialization and socialism is not a requirement for defeating fascism. It’s just a flawed system that a lot of people starved under.
Are you aware of how many tens of millions of people were saved from Nazi genocide thanks to the industrialization that underpinned the collectivization of farms in the Soviet Union?
Are you aware that many other countries industrialized without collectivizing farms? That’s not at all a requirement for industrialization and doesn’t have anything to do with the Nazis stupidly entering into a two front war because of the general incompetence that goes hand and hand with fascism.
Are you aware that many other countries industrialized without collectivizing farms?
Yes, the other countries at the time who had industrialized had done so through slavery (USA) or colonialism (UK, France, Germany, Japan), all of which killed tens of millions more than collectivization failures ever did.
Nazis are stupid, but don’t diminish the Soviet war effort. 80% of dead Nazi soldiers died in the Eastern Front, and it costed the lives of 25 million Soviet heroes to achieve this.
Fuck the Soviets. The reason we went to war is because the Nazis invaded Poland, and the Soviets were complicit in that. Just because Hitler was a dumbass and attacked the Soviet Union doesn’t mean we owe that fucked up government anything. I respect the soldiers that fought despite the fact they had that asshole Stalin oppressing them, but I have no respect for the Soviet Union or Stalin because of the events of WWII, and neither should you.
The Kolkhoz system in the Soviet Union is really not to dissimilar to modern farming practices.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkhoz
The system of petty/peasant farming is over. Successful farms are already “collectivized”, and hire farmhands to do the work.
https://www.epi.org/blog/how-many-farmworkers-are-employed-in-the-united-states/
WTF are you talking about? Undocumented immigrants are the peasant class of the USA. Are you so out of touch you don’t know who harvests the food you eat?
Proletarians work for a wage, peasants do not. The undocumented immigrants on USA farms are proletarians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasant
Your main claim was that, the Soviet Union “collective” farming system caused famine; but in reality it was just the conversion from traditional feudal peasant farming to modern capitalist farming, entirely orchestrated by the state.
Modern farms are already “collectivized” and so your claim does not hold water or is at best accurate but completely irrelevant to the modern day.
Well you’re a pedantic one aren’t you? Undocumented immigrants don’t have the rights of a citizen and therefore are a lower class. They work in the agricultural sector for the landowner while having no rights. That’s a peasant to me, but go a head and continue be pedantic about everything to avoid having any new thoughts.
Free humanity from the burden of unwanted labours.
that’s not how it works though
This misses the point. The point is no one, especially someone who has given back to society by preforming labor, should be left out in the cold.
Consider an example of a women, who does not work but raises childern and perform other chores to support her husband.
She is quite important in contribution to the society, but when we talk just about working people, we overlook her.
And I am sure there are many such people who are critical for the function of the society, but do not “make money” (i,e wage labor nor even owning capital for that matter)
This is why, IMO, this distinction of “people who work” is counter productive. Everyone should be able to live without poverty.
She is quite important in contribution to the society, but when we talk just about working people, we overlook her.
…even then, since her contribution is to her own household should that marriage collapse society decides that not only is she owed a share of their produced assets to date but also a share of his future production for her part in enhancing it to date (alimony), including the requirement that he must continue to produce at that level at a minimum (aka alimony is based on what a judge believes you can earn, not what you actually are earning). Sometimes this also includes a share of any future retirement income as well.
Everyone should be able to live without poverty.
Ultimately, what you would consider living without poverty requires the labor of some number of people to maintain, and eventually the question of why they do that labor for people who don’t do that labor will be asked, by them if not by you. Usually the answer is that those people are doing other labor which benefits the first group, usually abstracted out to some generalized representation of debt (aka money).
I think the point is nobody should live in poverty. Fullstop. Addendum to that, workers should be paid a fair day’s wage for a fair day’s work. But the first sentence is the core of everything.
They don’t agree with that, they think that if you have a job you are more worthy of being allowed to live.
It is called the Nirvana falacy: rejection of anything that is not an immediate perfect solution.
A road is crossed in many steps, not one giant leap.
Ironic.
At no point in this meme or thread, has the argument ever been ‘We should never go to the 1st step’, it is entirely 'We should aim for the 2nd step, and don’t let the Libs stop you at the 1st.
The only people who reject anything, are the libs who reject the notion that you can work towards the 2nd step.
The only people who reject anything, are the libs who reject the notion that you can work towards the 2nd step.
Do they? In my short lived experience its us leftist that reject just about everything. We don’t engage in elections do we don’t change policy. I can’t even get people around my local DSA to shift toward open source. My pitch there is that we are moving to a parallel economy and independence from capital.
This meme is a microcosm of why we don’t have a real movement. The lib is broadly in agreement and gives us an angle for policy change, but the lefty, and echoed by fellow leftist in the comments, are flipping the table.
You missed their point.
No one, not only workers.
Still not getting it. These people have sacrificed a substantial part of their life and have nothing to show for it.
People are saying “no one should live in poverty,” not “no one should live in poverty, by which we mean no one should make money for their labor.” You’re tilting at windmills.
I think youre tilting at the windmills. To say a liberal doesnt believe every one deserves a basic standard of living just isn’t true and is not what was said in the first statment.
You don’t get it, you don’t have to sacrifice anything to have value as a human.
Why do Libs always have to dehumanise people?
If you work 100 or 0 hours a week, you have exactly the same right to basic life needs.
You dont get. Beyond your idea utopian society the society these people labor to build has forsaken them.
OP doesn’t understand what these terms mean.
You think the democrats are radical leftists, don’t you?
No? But you probably think Trump is since you’re comparing liberals and leftists.
I like the spirit but were not japan, we have to consider the antisocials.
There need to be requirments to meet to receive entitlements.
Also though capitalism is just bad at providing necessities, slapping a ubi on top wont fix it.
No.
No fucking requirements on human worth, and living is not a bloody entitlement.
man existing requires work, whether we like it or not. freeloading hurts peoples interest in the common good.
Here’s a requirement for you:
- Be alive.
Literally nobody consented to be born. So everything needed to keep a living person alive should be a right.
While yes i don’t want to slave away most of my time by effectively working 10hrs in my 40hr work week.
yet- he who does not work shall not eat.
We overproduce an abundance of food.
There are people who cannot labour or be materially productive members of society, they are no less important or worthy of basic humanity.
A persons value is not limited to what you can extract from them.
What are you talking about? When i was born in the '80s, being unemployed for more than a few month was criminal offense in most socialist European countries. Leftism is beneficial in moderation, but definitely not every leftism is bestism if this is your only criteria for “bestism”
Which European countries were socialist in the 80s?
Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Chekoslovakia, Poland, the whole USSR. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_parasitism_(offense) Yugoslavia and Albania were socialist too but I’m not sure if there was law against unemployment there.
The soviet union was an authoritarian one party state my guy
I agree. But I don’t get why are you saying it like that. It was a socialist, authoritarian state. All of these countries were at the time. Maybe I’m missing something.
How can the workers be in control of the means of production if they aren’t even in control of their own lives? What a silly thing to say.
To be honest I do feel a bit silly continuing this. However, are you trying to say that socialism is not a leftist mode of government? How would you categories the policies of socialist/communist dictatorships, centrist? Workers were not above the law, and had no input what sad laws were. But workers did own the factoryies and the kolhoz. Most of these governments collapsed because they lost the support of the proleteriat (workers). It was not the will power of the political elites that hold it to gether, but the millions of workers sincere belief that they are making the world a better place.
Social democracy is good to live in; yeah true. Leftism (in general) is bestism; hell no.
X: We have a non-fascist competent party - ?
Y: No! Only leftism!
X: Well, howabout the fascist party.
Y: Only Leftism!
X: That’d be the fascist party then.
X: We have a non-fascist competent party - ?
Y: No! No parties, no state.
lol you’re really leaning into the Democratic voter suppression the last day or so. What’s got your jimmies so ruffled? You bitched up because Charlie Kirk got shot and taking it out on the rest of us?
Nothing has changed in my views at all.
Are you annoyed that leftists have different opinions to you. Do you want to stop me from sharing mine so you can only promote yours?
lol
You’re not a leftist. You’re a fascist aggressively trying to devide actual leftists and prevent coalition building by creating false equivalence and misrepresenting other peoples opinions in an attempt to help fascists solidfy their power through voter suppression.
You’re a stochastic terrorist encouraging apathy and disengagement from people who may actually have good intentions around making genuine progress.
Oh get off it with the pseudo intellectual ad hominem nonsense.
Stop trying to co-opt a growing grass roots movement back towards the left, so that you can re-align it with some corpo-centrist nonsense that doesn’t hold up to what people want and need.
And you better start understanding fast that the fascists already have their power solidified.
I don’t know about your country, but our “non-fascist” party lost to a cartoon villain, so I wouldn’t call them competent. All it would’ve taken was not treating their voters with disdain and acting like they cared, but apparently that was too difficult.
And before anyone tries to direct blame at the base that got demoralized by shitty leadership, actually consider why you never direct that blame at the people with all power to shape their campaigns; the people who are supposed to “represent” their constituents.
I blame the people who voted Trump the most and the non voters the second most.
The Democrat should have been able to run a half empty can of expired crab juice and won.
The Democrat should have been able to run a half empty can of expired crab juice and won.
That’s the problem, they kept doing that every election.
Biden did a fantastic job and they listened to the people who thought Biden was too old and ran Harris who would have been great.
Even if you don’t like her life would be a thousand times better right now for everyone in the world.
they listened to the people who thought Biden was too old
WHAT? They refused to do it for so long it cost them the election.
That is some bad historical revisionism when it’s so fresh in our memory.
The party has told their sheep to ignore their history, it’s time for party funding and voting for the “lesser evil”.
You’re not actually disagreeing. They did wait too long, but they did it. You agree. That in itself is important. Can you imagine any republiQan doing that? No, because they only think about themselves.
Hell, they elected a demented rapist who’s stroking out every week instead of a legitimate candidate.
Historical revisionism? Not at all.
A shame you don’t recognize how much of a problem the Democrats are. I voted blue just like I had in every election before then, but I was so angry and scared, because I saw all the mistakes they made that cost us everything. I saw them ignore young people on TikTok and Israel. I saw them shy away from every possible hint of populism. I saw as they denied that the economy was terrible, praying the inflation would even out even though inflation was merely the tip of the iceberg.
Life would be 1000 times better if Harris won, but the fault lies squarely on the ruling class and the party elites. They refused to do what was necessary to unite their base, and as disappointed as we can be in the voters working 9-5s with no hope of ever owning a future, it was the party’s responsibility to win them over. Instead they underperformed in all those demographics because they refused to acknowledge problems or propose solutions. A party that has only become worse and will only fight the left.
When MAGA wanted change they took over the party.
The left just bitches that no one is listening to them and it’s sad.
Nah, what I’m saying is we need to take over the party and purge the feudalists acting as controlled opposition. That requires recognizing that there is a problem with the shit they feed us, not pretending that it’s anything but shit. That requires not doing the same fucking bullshit party elites do of denying that the situation is terrible. That requires not giving up and believing there is no other way than sucking corporate dick.
Fear is how MAGA radicalized their base, and we have nothing but reasons to be afraid right now.
And yet you’re still supporting the fascist. Interesting.
How is it supporting fascism? Please, enlighten us.
Liberals: We should compromise with the fascists and blame trans people for our incompetence
Leftists: DOWN WITH FASCISM AND DOWN WITH BIGOTRY
