Excuse you, I would never tell someone they are not really trans. If they say they were made trans by life circumstances, I would tell them that that is likely not true, but I would never dictate someone’s gender.
I’m somebody who absolutely does think I am trans purely by life circumstances, but I also recognize that the vast majority of trans people aren’t. Like I am incredibly glad that I transitioned and am now living life mostly stealth as a woman, years down the line, but I’m almost positive that if I wasn’t put through literal hell as a child (in the very cruel and specific ways that I was) I wouldn’t have even thought to have transitioned as a young adult. Perhaps I am completely incorrect in my assumptions about myself, and I would have turned out this way no matter what, but I find it hard to believe that if I wasn’t relentlessly bullied, harassed, beaten, and rejected by my peers as a child, that I would be sitting here now as a woman. I feel like I literally became a woman by sheer force of will in order to save my life, because I literally could not continue as the broken husk of a “man” I was at 21, and by some miracle it worked. But maybe I’m just delusional, idk
What do you think happened that made your internal gender change? To me, and to most trans people in my experience, it was a discovery of an already present internal gender and not a change.
It is also true that people who are more introspective, such as people who experienced trauma, are more likely to come out as trans - perhaps this is true for you.
I guess I am rather unique in my experience of transness in that I started living full time (and even passing) as a woman before I even self identified as one. The thing is, lifing as a women for aabout a year literally changed my internal sence of gender, I wanted it to happen and I made it happen. Maybe that’s just me rationalizing my inherent “transness” but that’s my recollection of events.
I’m sorry if I misunderstand, are you saying you were forced to present as a woman? If so, I’m sorry that happened to you but it does sound like it worked out for you.
If that wasn’t the case, to me it sounds like you were unconsciously aware of your gender but had conscious defense mechanisms that took time to work down.
My experience isn’t all that dissimilar, in that I admitted to myself and my therapist that I was “not cisgender”, knowing perfectly well that that would definitionally mean I am transgender, but also denied that I was transgender. This was repression, “still cis though” to a higher level. It sounds like your experience was similar.
Forced? Only by myself, as I thought it was the only way to keep living, though maybe that’s just proof that I am trans, and I simply constructed a bunch of mental hoops to jump through due to internalized transphobia?
Yeah, that’s what it sounds like to me. Cis people don’t transition their gender even if it’s “just for a year”, but trans people do try really hard to not be trans especially just before coming out.
If they say they were made trans by life circumstances, I would tell them that that is likely not true, but I would never dictate someone’s gender.
I think it’s worthwhile remaining open to this but not really valuable to trans people to like make it part of activism or anything. There are enough instances of people saying things like their sexuality has completely shifted for me to be open to the idea that what gender we’re attracted to can change. I don’t think we know enough about being trans to be certain one way or another, trans people however have a very understandable defensive reaction to this because we don’t want it to be weaponised against us as “fake” or whatever.
My basic point is this: If it’s inflictable, it’s curable.
I for one knew my gender from about as young as I could talk (Edit: I repressed this for many years due to massive social pressures). I remember my assigned gender being inflicted upon me at a young age, when I did not immediately conform. If you asked me pre-transition but after I realized I was trans whether or not I would press a button and become cis in my assigned gender, I would say that that feels like losing a significant part of myself. If you were to ask me, if I could have pressed a button and become a cis in my actual, realized gender, I would have said yes and that it wouldn’t have been a major loss of self at all. This is true pretty much my whole life. But I lacked the self awareness to realize this about my self, and that has changed, not my actual gender.
We are quite literally gaslit our entire lives in regards to our assigned gender. Usually, before one comes out, one tries to embrace their assigned gender only to find that they do not feel comfortable (i.e. dysphoria).
I don’t reject people having fluidity in their gender or sexuality. The way I view it, there is a multidimensional spectrum and people tend to inhabit different areas of it. If they did actually change sexuality or gender, and not just discover it, due to fluidity, then they might inhabit an area that includes something close to or exactly their assigned gender as well as their realized gender.
The leading theory for what makes people trans, and gay for that matter, is hormonal fluctuations during critical moments in fetal development. In other words, we are born this way.
“Cure” is loaded language. Your gender doesn’t need curing, your gender is what it is.
If it can be changed, then yes perhaps it can be intentionally changed. But what the mechanisms are for that to occur are absolutely not understood and any attempt to forcibly do so to anyone should be considered a violation of human rights.
I don’t disagree with the reasoning everyone has for being extremely defensive about this possibility, I just also don’t really rule it out as solidly as many others do. I get it though. I do understand why people have such a reaction to this and want it to be untrue. I feel like we don’t really understand any of it though. We’ve barely scratched the surface.
I also think a lot of the research is trying to confirm the idea that people are born this way. IE working from the conclusion. Because the science is performed by those with a desire for it to be the outcome because it’s the safest outcome for trans people. I’m not really convinced all of it is good.
I don’t know. I’ve just seen a lot of change in myself in my life and am open to the idea that we’re not as fixed as we believe. And of course that that’s OKAY and doesn’t change anything about how people should be treated or viewed.
Yes, my point in saying “cured” is that it is a loaded statement but is logically consistent with the idea being trans is inflicted upon you by something external, and that would lead to conversion therapy which has been shown to not work.
There does need to be more research. The current research supports what I’ve said, and future research could change that. However, at the very least some people are born trans, even if others somehow become trans in some critical early developmental milestone.
As for the idea that the research is seeking evidence of transness being inherit at birth: that is not the case, there have been many attempts to study so called “sudden onset gender dysphoria” or the idea that someone could suddenly become trans, and those studies can’t find any evidence for that (other than one that asked TERF parents if it seemed sudden to them, who of course said yes). Other studies have shown that people tend to have a concept of their internal gender from about as soon as they can talk, which is the earliest we could possibly test, indicating that if it is not prenatal then very early in life.
I think this lacks an open mind. This reaction isn’t that surprising though, I do get why you and other people are very invested in this. I think you’re too wedded to gender overall though, I find the camp of trans people writing about the idea that eventually society will enter a post-gender phase to be the most compelling theory. If gender can be abolished then it can also change.
Gender abolitionism usually focuses on roles and rigidity surrounding it, not the idea that we will eventually have no actual genders. Gender is biologically real but all the social constructs surrounding it are not. If this is not what you have read, I’m interested in links.
But there is no world in which I am not a woman - but very much a world where I am happy to reject the social constructs built up around womanhood.
I still posit that anyone that can actually change their gender (not realize it and change presentation and potentially roles) was gender fluid in the first place.
This reasoning errs much too close to bio-essentialism for me, it’s the same line of thinking that leads people to “you have to have dysphoria or you’re not trans”.
I believe all trans people. I do believe that all trans people have gender dysphoria (otherwise there wouldn’t be a reason to transition) though many do not recognize it and believe they are trans (which they are) but do not experience dysphoria (which they do). Think of this in a pure motivation sense. One does not make major life changes without something informing that decision, which is what dysphoria is.
I am seriously interested in gender abolitionist takes that aren’t just abolishing the strict roles/styles/behaviors affiliated with gender. I don’t think you can provide this, because gender abolitionists do believe people have an intrinsic gender (or rather, one may have an intrinsic gender, wrt agender individuals) they just don’t believe that one’s gender should be defined by someone else and that a lot of the roles and behaviors attributed to gender are regressive and need abolished. To which I agree. I am a woman but I am not gender conforming (rarely wear dresses or skirts, present relatively butch, and reject all gender roles).
Your rigid line of thinking here could easily convince someone that conversion therapy is a reasonable treatment for gender dysphoria, which it most certainly is not. Because why would it not be, if it could work? My answer to that is that my intrinsic gender is too much a part of me to rip out: you can’t change my gender. I would not be me if you tore my gender out of me.
Frankly, I’m kind of growing tired of discussing trans issues with cis people, especially when they keep telling me I’m biased (“I know why you’re so defensive about this”). I have a gender, if you don’t then that is good for you, but you can’t take my gender from me. Please genuinely consider that this is based on my life experiences, whereas your view is informed second hand on others’ lived experiences, if you wish to continue this discussion with me.
We’re talking about an imagined person whose internality we have access to. If you acknowledge that, within the assumptions of your own ideology, there could be people that are “likely not trans”, that means essentially that there is an array of different possible stipulated people and some of them are trans, but most of them aren’t. Another way to put it is that, if you said you were “80% sure” that someone wasn’t trans that means, depending on certain unknown variables that actually determine the truth of that guess, there are 20 possible worlds where they are trans and 80 where they aren’t.
All this to say, based on what you expressed ideologically originally and even in your refutation, it is consistent to stipulate a self-identified trans person who you identify as not trans, even if you would never tell a person that in real life (out of respect, because it involves information you can’t access, etc.). Does that make sense? I feel like I got a little bogged down in adjectives, but I felt obliged to explain myself further given the “Excuse you”.
The judgement of whether or not someone is trans is if they say they are. I frankly don’t understand what I said that makes you think I think it is acceptable for anyone to dictate someone’s gender or whether or not they are really trans, but I absolutely don’t believe that. I edited my original comment with a clarification.
The story sounds inauthentic to the trans experience and I think they made it up. I don’t think the OP isn’t trans, I think their made up story doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
The leading theory for what causes people to be trans (or gay for that matter) is hormonal fluctuations at critical points of fetal development. So we are born this way. People can be gender fluid as well, and they may have a different relationship with their gender(s) than I since I am not.
I see. I neglected an interpretation and it was important. So if someone says, for example and not necessarily making assertions about the OOP, that “I’m trans because I was born with a micropenis and that fuckin’ sucks,” your internal response would be “This person is trans, but doesn’t understand why they are trans.” [Or that it is likely that they don’t understand, and see what I said before about this implying it is true of some hypothetical people]
Is that a more fair representation of your view?
(I put this under the wrong comment at first somehow, but also I was partly using information from that one)
The word “likely” is just me acknowledging the potential for this view of trans people as being born trans, which is based on research, could change as more research is done.
The leading theory for what causes people to be trans (or gay for that matter) is hormonal fluctuations at critical points of fetal development. So we are born this way.
The evidence for this is really poor, the entire field of the hormonal theory of sexuality (and gender) is garbage
There’s lots of good literature on transmedicalism
Anyway someone who subscribed to that theory would say that a micropenis would be consistent with low fetal testerone and this story would be readily believable by them - far more than a trans woman who was born with a macropenis.
No someone wouldn’t, because a core tenet of that theory is the critical points part, there is a separate point that influenced genital development and a separate point that influenced mental gender development.
Excuse you, I would never tell someone they are not really trans. If they say they were made trans by life circumstances, I would tell them that that is likely not true, but I would never dictate someone’s gender.
I’m somebody who absolutely does think I am trans purely by life circumstances, but I also recognize that the vast majority of trans people aren’t. Like I am incredibly glad that I transitioned and am now living life mostly stealth as a woman, years down the line, but I’m almost positive that if I wasn’t put through literal hell as a child (in the very cruel and specific ways that I was) I wouldn’t have even thought to have transitioned as a young adult. Perhaps I am completely incorrect in my assumptions about myself, and I would have turned out this way no matter what, but I find it hard to believe that if I wasn’t relentlessly bullied, harassed, beaten, and rejected by my peers as a child, that I would be sitting here now as a woman. I feel like I literally became a woman by sheer force of will in order to save my life, because I literally could not continue as the broken husk of a “man” I was at 21, and by some miracle it worked. But maybe I’m just delusional, idk
What do you think happened that made your internal gender change? To me, and to most trans people in my experience, it was a discovery of an already present internal gender and not a change.
It is also true that people who are more introspective, such as people who experienced trauma, are more likely to come out as trans - perhaps this is true for you.
I guess I am rather unique in my experience of transness in that I started living full time (and even passing) as a woman before I even self identified as one. The thing is, lifing as a women for aabout a year literally changed my internal sence of gender, I wanted it to happen and I made it happen. Maybe that’s just me rationalizing my inherent “transness” but that’s my recollection of events.
I’m sorry if I misunderstand, are you saying you were forced to present as a woman? If so, I’m sorry that happened to you but it does sound like it worked out for you.
If that wasn’t the case, to me it sounds like you were unconsciously aware of your gender but had conscious defense mechanisms that took time to work down.
My experience isn’t all that dissimilar, in that I admitted to myself and my therapist that I was “not cisgender”, knowing perfectly well that that would definitionally mean I am transgender, but also denied that I was transgender. This was repression, “still cis though” to a higher level. It sounds like your experience was similar.
Forced? Only by myself, as I thought it was the only way to keep living, though maybe that’s just proof that I am trans, and I simply constructed a bunch of mental hoops to jump through due to internalized transphobia?
Yeah, that’s what it sounds like to me. Cis people don’t transition their gender even if it’s “just for a year”, but trans people do try really hard to not be trans especially just before coming out.
I think it’s worthwhile remaining open to this but not really valuable to trans people to like make it part of activism or anything. There are enough instances of people saying things like their sexuality has completely shifted for me to be open to the idea that what gender we’re attracted to can change. I don’t think we know enough about being trans to be certain one way or another, trans people however have a very understandable defensive reaction to this because we don’t want it to be weaponised against us as “fake” or whatever.
My basic point is this: If it’s inflictable, it’s curable.
I for one knew my gender from about as young as I could talk (Edit: I repressed this for many years due to massive social pressures). I remember my assigned gender being inflicted upon me at a young age, when I did not immediately conform. If you asked me pre-transition but after I realized I was trans whether or not I would press a button and become cis in my assigned gender, I would say that that feels like losing a significant part of myself. If you were to ask me, if I could have pressed a button and become a cis in my actual, realized gender, I would have said yes and that it wouldn’t have been a major loss of self at all. This is true pretty much my whole life. But I lacked the self awareness to realize this about my self, and that has changed, not my actual gender. We are quite literally gaslit our entire lives in regards to our assigned gender. Usually, before one comes out, one tries to embrace their assigned gender only to find that they do not feel comfortable (i.e. dysphoria).
I don’t reject people having fluidity in their gender or sexuality. The way I view it, there is a multidimensional spectrum and people tend to inhabit different areas of it. If they did actually change sexuality or gender, and not just discover it, due to fluidity, then they might inhabit an area that includes something close to or exactly their assigned gender as well as their realized gender.
The leading theory for what makes people trans, and gay for that matter, is hormonal fluctuations during critical moments in fetal development. In other words, we are born this way.
“Cure” is loaded language. Your gender doesn’t need curing, your gender is what it is.
If it can be changed, then yes perhaps it can be intentionally changed. But what the mechanisms are for that to occur are absolutely not understood and any attempt to forcibly do so to anyone should be considered a violation of human rights.
I don’t disagree with the reasoning everyone has for being extremely defensive about this possibility, I just also don’t really rule it out as solidly as many others do. I get it though. I do understand why people have such a reaction to this and want it to be untrue. I feel like we don’t really understand any of it though. We’ve barely scratched the surface.
I also think a lot of the research is trying to confirm the idea that people are born this way. IE working from the conclusion. Because the science is performed by those with a desire for it to be the outcome because it’s the safest outcome for trans people. I’m not really convinced all of it is good.
I don’t know. I’ve just seen a lot of change in myself in my life and am open to the idea that we’re not as fixed as we believe. And of course that that’s OKAY and doesn’t change anything about how people should be treated or viewed.
Yes, my point in saying “cured” is that it is a loaded statement but is logically consistent with the idea being trans is inflicted upon you by something external, and that would lead to conversion therapy which has been shown to not work.
There does need to be more research. The current research supports what I’ve said, and future research could change that. However, at the very least some people are born trans, even if others somehow become trans in some critical early developmental milestone.
As for the idea that the research is seeking evidence of transness being inherit at birth: that is not the case, there have been many attempts to study so called “sudden onset gender dysphoria” or the idea that someone could suddenly become trans, and those studies can’t find any evidence for that (other than one that asked TERF parents if it seemed sudden to them, who of course said yes). Other studies have shown that people tend to have a concept of their internal gender from about as soon as they can talk, which is the earliest we could possibly test, indicating that if it is not prenatal then very early in life.
I think this lacks an open mind. This reaction isn’t that surprising though, I do get why you and other people are very invested in this. I think you’re too wedded to gender overall though, I find the camp of trans people writing about the idea that eventually society will enter a post-gender phase to be the most compelling theory. If gender can be abolished then it can also change.
Gender abolitionism usually focuses on roles and rigidity surrounding it, not the idea that we will eventually have no actual genders. Gender is biologically real but all the social constructs surrounding it are not. If this is not what you have read, I’m interested in links.
But there is no world in which I am not a woman - but very much a world where I am happy to reject the social constructs built up around womanhood.
I still posit that anyone that can actually change their gender (not realize it and change presentation and potentially roles) was gender fluid in the first place.
This reasoning errs much too close to bio-essentialism for me, it’s the same line of thinking that leads people to “you have to have dysphoria or you’re not trans”.
I believe all trans people. I do believe that all trans people have gender dysphoria (otherwise there wouldn’t be a reason to transition) though many do not recognize it and believe they are trans (which they are) but do not experience dysphoria (which they do). Think of this in a pure motivation sense. One does not make major life changes without something informing that decision, which is what dysphoria is.
I am seriously interested in gender abolitionist takes that aren’t just abolishing the strict roles/styles/behaviors affiliated with gender. I don’t think you can provide this, because gender abolitionists do believe people have an intrinsic gender (or rather, one may have an intrinsic gender, wrt agender individuals) they just don’t believe that one’s gender should be defined by someone else and that a lot of the roles and behaviors attributed to gender are regressive and need abolished. To which I agree. I am a woman but I am not gender conforming (rarely wear dresses or skirts, present relatively butch, and reject all gender roles).
Your rigid line of thinking here could easily convince someone that conversion therapy is a reasonable treatment for gender dysphoria, which it most certainly is not. Because why would it not be, if it could work? My answer to that is that my intrinsic gender is too much a part of me to rip out: you can’t change my gender. I would not be me if you tore my gender out of me.
Frankly, I’m kind of growing tired of discussing trans issues with cis people, especially when they keep telling me I’m biased (“I know why you’re so defensive about this”). I have a gender, if you don’t then that is good for you, but you can’t take my gender from me. Please genuinely consider that this is based on my life experiences, whereas your view is informed second hand on others’ lived experiences, if you wish to continue this discussion with me.
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We’re talking about an imagined person whose internality we have access to. If you acknowledge that, within the assumptions of your own ideology, there could be people that are “likely not trans”, that means essentially that there is an array of different possible stipulated people and some of them are trans, but most of them aren’t. Another way to put it is that, if you said you were “80% sure” that someone wasn’t trans that means, depending on certain unknown variables that actually determine the truth of that guess, there are 20 possible worlds where they are trans and 80 where they aren’t.
All this to say, based on what you expressed ideologically originally and even in your refutation, it is consistent to stipulate a self-identified trans person who you identify as not trans, even if you would never tell a person that in real life (out of respect, because it involves information you can’t access, etc.). Does that make sense? I feel like I got a little bogged down in adjectives, but I felt obliged to explain myself further given the “Excuse you”.
The judgement of whether or not someone is trans is if they say they are. I frankly don’t understand what I said that makes you think I think it is acceptable for anyone to dictate someone’s gender or whether or not they are really trans, but I absolutely don’t believe that. I edited my original comment with a clarification.
The story sounds inauthentic to the trans experience and I think they made it up. I don’t think the OP isn’t trans, I think their made up story doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
The leading theory for what causes people to be trans (or gay for that matter) is hormonal fluctuations at critical points of fetal development. So we are born this way. People can be gender fluid as well, and they may have a different relationship with their gender(s) than I since I am not.
I see. I neglected an interpretation and it was important. So if someone says, for example and not necessarily making assertions about the OOP, that “I’m trans because I was born with a micropenis and that fuckin’ sucks,” your internal response would be “This person is trans, but doesn’t understand why they are trans.” [Or that it is likely that they don’t understand, and see what I said before about this implying it is true of some hypothetical people]
Is that a more fair representation of your view?
(I put this under the wrong comment at first somehow, but also I was partly using information from that one)
Yes, exactly.
The word “likely” is just me acknowledging the potential for this view of trans people as being born trans, which is based on research, could change as more research is done.
The evidence for this is really poor, the entire field of the hormonal theory of sexuality (and gender) is garbage
There’s lots of good literature on transmedicalism
Anyway someone who subscribed to that theory would say that a micropenis would be consistent with low fetal testerone and this story would be readily believable by them - far more than a trans woman who was born with a macropenis.
No someone wouldn’t, because a core tenet of that theory is the critical points part, there is a separate point that influenced genital development and a separate point that influenced mental gender development.