Sensationalist title yes, but this is something that is partially true.
TLDR; I am not spreading FUD. This space can be more safe than many, for the privacy aspect it was actually designed to maintain, which is the complete opposite privacy principle to where most new people are coming from. A monolith platform provides a measure of control over how public your engagement is while leaving you open to being tracked; open federated protects you from being tracked with a cost of having less control over how public your engagement is (and will remain). Some people do not understand this and will change the way they engage if they understand.
There is a lot of misinformation I am seeing (or at least glossed over information) that will potentially lead less informed to peril. I am hoping to provide clarity and maybe shift the attitude of some of the more technical among the community. Not everyone is educated in the same domains, and not every one will grasp some of these concepts easily.
Every thread started along the lines of āDiscovered X in Lemmy is not privateā is followed up with a comment āEh, not really an issue. And I reviewed the code myself, an account deletion removes everything from the dbā. I push my glasses up: āAckchyually, that isnāt really true in practice. If defederation happens, or otherwise disconnected, (which always will happen in some capacity) a copy will remain in Lemmiverse, foreverā. This is followed up with āwell duh, that is how federation works, and everything you post on the internet is copied and there forever. It is no different than a scrape or a screenshotā.
There are nuanced but very important distinctions to a scrape or screenshot and a federated, distributed, indexed copy. Those distinctions will change the way many engage with the platform.
Most people are not having screenshots taken of every post they make, when they make them. Most donāt have to be concerned with wildly compromising material tanking their run for office. It takes a high degree of intent and effort for someone to go to external, and unauthorized sources of duplication. It may not be a complete profile history. Most archives are not going to be indexed and easily searchable on mainstream search engines. Unauthorized archives can get sued into oblivion or otherwise disappear.
Not everyone is able to grasp a platform that acts kind of like a single entity but is not a single entity, especially if they are a refugee from a monolith platform. Many just see it as a single entity initially and when they see āremoved from the dbā they will assume any such action means platform wide.
A federated copy is automatic and effectively instant by design. A federated copy will be a complete profile. A federated copy will show up in federated searches. A federated copy could end up readily showing up in external indexes. A federated copy may have engagement the user isnāt notified of. A user on an instance where defederation has happened may easily come across an entire profile history in a frozen state. Attention can be brought to content that the user desires censored because it will say āeditedā or ādeleted by user Xā and a SnoopyJerkison could just switch to an instance account that has a copy with two clicks in the official app.
I have made an informed decision on how I will engage by recognizing this. Iāve accepted the folks my local are always going to see my spelling as impecabā¦ impeccibahhā¦ very good, while some other local may see me as the philistine that I am before an edit. I will inevitably doxx myself in some way but it might be nice to have a stalker. Itās just me and the damn dog on our private fiberglass island here and she isnāt much of a conversationalist. I am in a place in life where Iām pretty comfortable with myself and have no problem walking around here with no pants on. Not sure why I recently got onto using pant idioms at every opportunity, but I have accepted that if it follows me around with folks replying, āI know you, youāre that guy with no pants!ā, I wonāt be able to go back and remove the sources of the reference platform wide.
Iāve made comments I cringe a little at. Entirely benign and nothing Iām losing sleep over, but in haste they were not expressed in my usual voice nor really contributed to the discussion. If I had hesitated longer I would not have responded. Point being: Iām the one ringing alarm bells about this and I am still having to remind myself of the nature of federation.
Some people may not be comfortable with this, or could become less comfortable later. They should not be led to believe that it is a simple matter of āthe internet doesnāt forget, but you can delete it from the platformā and understand they need to be very cognizant and thoughtful in how they engage because federation is very unforgiving and really doesnāt forget. This is a feature, not a bug. At its core, federation is balancing many goals. From censorship resistance, community safety, to privacy. It can actually provide an extreme level of privacy. But people will make mistakes, that will remain here, right in their face, if they arenāt extra careful. It wonāt be in some dark archive. It wonāt be in a screenshot never taken and never posted. The reminder of an accidental slip up will be here to perpetually haunt them. They will leave (likely traumatized by it for years to come).
A federated copy will have the perception of being more legitimate, true or not. The common, non-technical, person wonāt understand if they find something you post hosted on a site you are ideologically opposed to, which it will be. Imagine my embarrassment at the next Pantless-Meeting-Pantless event when I get stopped at the door and shown the posts they believe I have actively made on ānever-nude.socialā. āButā¦ butā¦ federation!ā. āOk Captain Kirk. Hereās your pants. Now scram!ā
Some want to have assurance they can remove content platform wide for other reasons. Revoking support for a platform is one that seems to be in vogue right now. Iāve seen posts like āthat site we hate is restoring our retracted posts!ā. But Iāve seen cases right here on Lemmy where a user has censored all their content, only to come across that same content on other widely used instances completely intact.
This loss of edit access happens fast. Every user at this local will be aware of the high profile cases of defederation. This is a feature by design, and one you can expect more of I suspect. There are also simply errors in federation at times. Iāve lost access to copies on a popular instance the second I posted them.
Maybe this will change. It will be a monumental challenge. And it isnāt the case now. Users have to fully understand this.
āSo what, screw the normies. Let them find out the hard way. Itās getting too crowded here anyway. Like you pantless sinnerdotbin! Git outta here if you donāt like it here in the wwwild-wild-westā.
Yet another aspect some are failing to recognize: many of the instances exist in places where they do take privacy very seriously. There are laws about disclosing collection, use and retention of data. One day you may visit your trusty local and you may find a blank page with a single statement: āI keep having very expensive embodied suits appear on my doorstep holding crisp manilla envelopes. I may be breaking the law. I am shuttering immediatelyā. Hope I didnāt want a reputation of wearing buttless-chaps instead of no pants ācause I aināt got access to modify any of it now.
Iāve seen admins advising others to block EU in their firewall because they are aware of this liability and the lack of a privacy policy. That is a big part of the world that will have limited contribution to this movement.
Policies go a long way to establish user trust. I have gained a high level of confidence in some admins. They are competent, capable, and thoughtful about their users. People have been investigating hardening beyond what I would expect from any admin. They could showcase this level of care and intent by explaining it in their policies.
Privacy policy frameworks can also help new admins navigate responsibilities that keep their users, and the wider platform, safe.
Donāt hand wave this aspect away with ādonāt post anything you donāt want public on the internetā. This is a totally different beast. Educate those not as fortunate as you to understand how this actually works. It is designed for your actual traceable information to be kept safe by the gatekeepers, the admins. Users must be highly aware: everything else you do here is public in a way you may never have experienced before.
Donāt hand wave the concern about post/profile/vote/message privacy, explain how the privacy goal is different here and how one might mitigate the aspects they are not comfortable with.
I have started a project where I intend to provide basic policy frameworks that one might use as a point of reference and I would very much like further input on it.
https://github.com/BanzooIO/federated_policies_and_tos/
These policies are going to be terrifying for the uninitiated. I have drafted an optional privacy policy preface that may help admins express the clear distinctions between their responsibility, their usersā responsibility, and the actual real privacy goals in this emerging space.
https://github.com/BanzooIO/federated_policies_and_tos/blob/main/optional-privacy-policy-intro.md
- End transmission, engage pantalon. Zip
I donāt personally have that big of a problem with my posts/comments being āpersistentā, as I have a fairly high threshold for commenting and refrain from commenting anything too incendiary. And anyway, posts/comments, as I see it, are public and should be considered as such.
However, what Iām still a bit unclear on is the privacy of my votes/saves in the Fediverse. Should I start exercising the same caution in what I upvote or save? I understand that my home instance admins will have access to this data, but is that it?
Votes are entirely public, Lemmy just made a UI choice not to show them. They show up if someone views it from kbin and ultimately something that could be mined from a self hosted admin.
I think this information may make some of those who profess everything is saved on the internet and why care change their tune.
Saves I am not sure about yet. Think that may be locals only.
Well thatās pretty unfortunate. I quite liked Redditās āanonymous likesā approach.
Yeah. I can see a case made on either side.
This is the point I am trying to drive home. Even with zero comments, zero posts, you could doxx yourself accidentally with votes alone. You came here from another platform and had a certain expectation of how privacy works here. It does intuitively feel like it should be private.
You are trading some privacy for censorship resistance and community safety in this case, because the goals are different here.
If you trust your admin to keep your IP and email private, and you manage your comments and posts carefully, I encourage you to let your voice be heard and upvote every sinnerdotbinās pantless picture post of the week (just donāt like the posts in a different, very small and niche category that can link to you publically as you are the chair of the board at never-nude.social, and there are only 5 members who always like the same posts) . If you are in a country where that support might end with you in a work camp, Iād maybe advise against it in case your local turns out to be a honeypot.
There is a privacy component to federation that the world really would benefit from, but it will be lost if people are not informed. Incredibly private if you are aware how to navigate it. Horrible if you arenāt.
This is an aspect Iāve given a fair bit of thought to. With good app support we could create multiple identities and subscribe to different communities with each and then the app could know to always intact with a given (subscribed) community under a given identity. That would allow a smooth experience without accidentally over sharing. It would also to a degree allow a user to avoid the pain of defederation.
Iāve had a similar idea. Want to have a race to market? (youāll have a head start, Iām heading into the domain of managing federation block lists next).
This is the beautiful part of an open platform, we can all steer it and contribute all sorts of wonderful solutions.
There have to be two dozen apps out there already. It makes way more sense for one of them to steal the idea than for me to create another one based on a single feature. š
I believe that votes are private in the sense that they are out of view unless you go digging for them. A bit like stepping behind a curtain to have a conversation in a room full of people.
As for saved posts, Looking at the documentation, I think that that is local to your home server only.
https://join-lemmy.org/docs/contributors/05-federation.html
Unless a user is viewing from kbin, which interoperates here. It is entirely in view to the kbin UI (and Mastodon I believe).