There is a similar question on the site which must not be named.
My question still has a little different spin:
It seems to me that one of the biggest selling points of Nix is basically infrastructure as code. (Of course being immutable etc. is nice by itself.)
I wonder now, how big the delta is for people like me: All my desktops/servers are based on Debian stable with heavy customization, but 100% automated via Ansible. It seems to me, that a lot of the vocal Nix user (fans) switched from a pet desktop and discover IaC via Nix, and that they are in the end raving about IaC (which Nix might or might not be a good vehicle for).
When I gave Silverblue a try, I totally loved it, but then to configure it for my needs, I basically would have needed to configure the host system, some containers and overlays to replicate my Debian setup, so for me it seemed like too much effort to arrive nearly at where I started. (And of course I can use distrobox/podman and have containerized environments on Debian w/o trouble.)
Am I missing something?
Close to none. Immutable solve the same problem that was solved years ago with Ansible and BTRFS/ZFS snapshots, there’s an important long-term difference however…
Immutable distros are all about making thing that were easy into complex, “locked down”, “inflexible”, bullshit to justify jobs and payed tech stacks and a soon to be released property solution. We had Ansible, containers, ZFS and BTRFS that provided all the required immutability needed already but someone decided that is is time to transform proven development techniques in the hopes of eventually selling some orchestration and/or other proprietary repository / platform like Docker / Kubernetes does. Docker isn’t totally proprietary and there’s Podman but consider the following: It doesn’t really matter if there are truly open-source and open ecosystems of containerization technologies. In the end people/companies will pick the proprietary / closed option just because “it’s easier to use” or some other specific thing that will be good on the short term and very bad on the long term.
“Oh but there are truly open-source immutable distros” … true, but again this hype is much like Docker and it will invariably and inevitably lead people down a path that will then require some proprietary solution or dependency somewhere (DockerHub) that is only required because the “new” technology itself alone doesn’t deliver as others did in the past. Those people now popularizing immutable distributions clearly haven’t had any experience with it before the current hype. Let me tell you something, immutable systems aren’t a new thing we already had it with MIPS devices (mostly routers and IOTs) and people have been moving to ARM and mutable solutions because it’s better, easier and more reliable.
The RedHat/CentOS fiasco was another great example of this ecosystems and once again all those people who got burned instead of moving to a true open-source distribution like Debian decided to pick Ubuntu - it’s just a matter of time until Canonical decides to do some move.
Nowadays, without Internet and the ecosystems people can’t even do shit anymore. Have a look at the current state of things when it comes to embedded development, in the past people were able to program AVR / PIC / Arduino boards offline and today everyone moved to ESP devices and depends on the PlatformIO + VSCode ecosystem to code and deploy to the devices. Speaking about VSCode it is also open-source until you realize that 1) the language plugins that you require can only compiled and run in official builds of VSCode and 2) Microsoft took over a lot of the popular 3rd party language plugins, repackage them with a different license… making it so if you try to create a fork of VSCode you can’t have any support for any programming language because it won’t be an official VSCode build. MS be like :).
All those things that make development very easy and lowered the bar for newcomers have the dark side of being designed to reconfigure and envelope the way development gets done so someone can profit from it. That is sad and above all set dangerous precedents and creates generations of engineers and developers that don’t have truly open tools like we did.
This is all about commoditizing development - it’s a negative feedback loop that never ends. Yes I say commoditizing development because if you look at it those techs only make it easier for the entry level developer and companies instead of hiring developers for their knowledge and ability to develop they’re just hiring “cheap monkeys” that are able to configure those technologies and cloud platforms to deliver something. At the end of the they the business of those cloud companies is transforming developer knowledge into products/services that companies can buy with a click.
Who hurt you?
I mean, you got some points, but went way over board with it and beyond the scope of the question.
So, you really think, that this must be the reason immutable desktops were invented?
Most likely not, but the people pushing for the / the narrative certainly are for that.
Just so you know, NixOS is older than all of these, actually. And for that matter, no less flexible.
Sorry, hard disagree from me.
Immutable distros solve a lot of problems and are IMHO a great idea. I love my SteamDeck with SteamOS, I really like Silverblue and OpenSUSEs MicroOS (Avalon or however it is called right now). For my desktops/servers Debian is the best choice right now, but my Thinkpad from 2012 which runs now happily as an entertainment machine is a perfect example where an immutable distro would be much better and practical.
Immutable distros are a solution to a real problem, and this problem is not solved by Ansible/BTRFS etc. Hell, I’ll happily jump ship sooner than later. Of course, YMMV and I don’t say immutable distros solve all problems for everyone, but having this option is great IMHO.
Well I tried Aeon for a month and it has been the least reliable system I’ve used since, well actually probably anything, like maybe vista I guess.
The thing is a mess and it brings nothing to the table over A/B snapshots.
The scales must be different for enterprise use because I’d never go near another immutable OS again after this terrible experience.
Maybe it’s just flatpak that’s unreliable on Aeon, I found moving electron apps into podman containers was a lot better. But on void it was fine, clearly a lot more work to do the flesh it out I goes.
Tbf SB had far less issues than Aeon.
Just tell me what that problem is and how it isn’t already solved with Ansible/BTRFS.
Some examples pointed out above, the big thing is the ‘immutable’ and bit for bit replication to the best of my knowledge.
Ansible is imperativ and applies changes to a starting state. Immutable distros replicate a known state 100%, which is in every respect superior and prevents nasty surprises Immutable distros are 100% reproducible from a config file, which is a big thing for cyber security, building software etc. Debian has too many packages given the amount of contributors they have. The immutable distros are mostly moving to flatpak, which hopefully means that the Distros can focus their energy on a great core experience, and communities like LibreOffice can focus on creating a great flatpak experience.
Nobody says that containers / and/or immutable distros are a good solution for your specific needs and use cases, that’s fine. For me, and after using Silverblue for some time (and btw. containers on multiple occasions), I am looking forward to jumping ship, because I like the user experience, declarative configurations are the logical next step when using Ansible and atomic updates in the backgrounds w/o the problems of package managers are great IMHO.
So does Ansible. Pick something like Alpine and destroy and recreate instances whenever you need to change your setup. Done.
I don’t know of anyone with a modicum of experience with cloud solutions that would pretend it is making anything “simpler” lol
The only closed parts of Docker are Docker Desktop, which isn’t required at all, and Docker Hub, which is a repo like any other. You can load images from anywhere. It’s hard to take anything you say regarding container technology seriously if you seriously think VMs & Ansible/Chef/Puppet really answers the same problems as lightweight containers.
MS did take some language servers and relicensed them, yes. Other language servers still exist, and the LSP protocol is still open, and used in many other editors.
This reads like “Real Programmers Don’t Use Pascal”, minus the tongue in cheek tone…
You just missed the point. There are always alternatives, generally not as good and unlike before all tooling is now hostage of some big provider.
Feel free to point where I missed the point, cause I don’t see it. Outside these “functions as a service” things like Lambda, I genuinely struggle to think of anything that’s truly “hostage” of a big provider or just plain worse. Especially amongst the examples you’ve given.