Yup,. the hypocrisy is so thick you can taste it, and it’s bitter with a strong hint of propaganda. the world is lead by assholes, on all sides.
the world is lead by assholes, on all sides.
This is an objectively true statement. Of course the world is lead by assholes.
We all know that power corrupts. Neuroscience has shown that getting power damages the brain’s capacity for empathy.
You just can’t lead a nation without becoming capable of great evil.
You just can’t lead a nation without becoming capable of great evil.
Yup. One of the very few who had the capability and likely didn’t use it.
Which of course led to him being single term because he wasn’t ruthless enough for a voting public that would rather have a former actor run the country into the ground while paying loveable grandpa to hide the evil.
But that wasn’t because he couldn’t lead the country, just that the public loves to fall for confident blowhards that tell them what they want to hear.
There isn’t a single US president in living memory without a litany of war crimes on their head, and probably going back further but I don’t particularly feel like going back to pre-WWII history because just why bother at this point?
https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/18/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy/
https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/11/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy-2/
Jimmy Carter was good at lip-service, not in reality. And honestly, I don’t even think it’s because he was a particularly nasty person - although I wouldn’t be surprised, he was a politician - it’s just the job forces you to become a war criminal. That’s what happens when you volunteer to supervise the war crimes factory.
EDIT: Actually, if you want to go back further, read one of the US military’s most decorated generals on what the military’s true purpose is, written in the interwar period: https://archive.org/details/WarIsARacket
Edit 2: before anyone else wants to pile on this and call it all bullshit because they read one item and it wasn’t genocidal enough for them, at least read as far as East Timor, 1977. The list is chronological, if you get bored after the first item I’m sorry, but I’m not spoon-feeding you the whole article.
If those are the worst examples you can come up with the man was basically a saint. What a bullshit hit piece. I am now dumber for having read it.
“Basically a saint” because he only sent aid to juntas and brutal genocidal regimes as opposed to what, exactly? Ordering the bombs dropped himself? I notice you didn’t even answer a single charge, just called it all bullshit. Why? I guess we should all just trust your judgement on the matter and call it closed?
Also, if you think he was “basically a saint” even though his administration still backed genocide, then I think you’re kind of accepting my premise that “That’s what happens when you volunteer to supervise the war crimes factory.”
So he has blood on his hands for not getting involved and for getting involved when both sides are likely to commit atrocities.
What a ridiculous bar to set.
What are you talking about? Please be specific. All I’m getting are vague “nuh-uh” answers. If you want to actually convince anyone that you have a point, you need to make it.
The
first charge(edit: it was the third charge, I do apologise for expecting anyone to read more than a few paragraphs), was his support for Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor. That’s not a “both sides” kind of issue. It’s an invasion and ensuing genocide. It’s not hard to judge what the right thing to do is there, but the US chose their global strategic goals over not genocide.So like… what are you talking about? Please be specific.
The first example was Zaire, so if you don’t even know what you are linking I’m not going to go through it line by line.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/18/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy/
William Blum writes in Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II that Carter, who had been in office for only two months, was reluctant to involve his administration in a far-reaching intervention whose scope and length could not be easily anticipated.
However, Carter did provide “non-lethal” aid, while he did not protest as European countries offered military aid, and Morocco sent several thousand of its US-trained military forces to aid Mobutu.
“President Carter asserted on more than one occasion that the Zaire crisis was an African problem, best solved by Africans, yet he apparently saw no contradiction to this thesis in his own policy, nor did he offer any criticism of France or Belgium, or of China, which sent Mobutu a substantial amount of military equipment,” writes Blum. [1]
He didn’t criticize, what an absolute bloodthirsty monster!
I apologise for getting a minor detail wrong about the order of items in the list, I underestimated how critically important the order of items in that list was to you.
For instance it seems like you saw a chronological list and when the very first item - which is actually quite damning and from which you omitted the inciting incident of a CIA-backed assassination - wasn’t a full-on war crime, you decided it was all frivolous. I can see why it’s so easy to get someone like you to ignore war crimes when you’re that unwilling to even read about them. I called out East Timor by name and you still ignored it. I can’t hold your hand through the entire article. History is for people who are willing to do some reading.
Anyway, if you go just a few items down the list, you read this:
The genocidal slaughter reached its peak in 1977, On March 1, 95 members of the Australian Parliament sent a letter to Carter claiming the Indonesian troops were carrying out “atrocities” and asking the American President “to comment publicly on the situation in East Timor.” [3]
The response was crickets. Carter ramped up aid with funding and weapons to the murderous Indonesian regime, brazenly flaunting the human rights requirements imposed on American aid.
So that’s a war crime, even by the extremely lax rules imposed by the US on themselves and to which they will never hold themselves accountable.
It’s extremely frustrating to hold the apparently controversial opinion that killing civilians is, consistently, a bad thing.
You’re only worth moral consideration if those in power want you to be.
Wars, racism, homophobia, etc. These are just the results of those who have the power to ignore those they deem not worthy, doing whatever they want.
It ranges from current wars, to past wars, to the Holocaust, to 9/11, to eating animals, to Epstein, etc.
Maybe one day we will realize that someones worth should not be assigned by others.
We are all equal or we are all dead.
The controversy is this. Do we REALLY want to vote for Trump who is going to take away our freedoms, dismantle democracy and probably won’t do anything to stop the genocide in Gaza anyway? Or are we going to vote for the candidate that definitely won’t stop the genocide in Gaza but will at least ensure we maintain a democracy? Its not a good choice either way but I have my own life to look out for and will vote accordingly.
The greatest service Biden could do to this country (and also the world) is make it so that felons can’t run for president and then drop out of the race.
Let’s not forget that trump supported the move of Israel’s capital to goddamn Jerusalem
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So Hamas killing civilians is a bad thing too?
Yes, obviously. Why do you ask? Since you asked, I may as well ask, is Israel killing civilians a bad thing?
Gonna start calling out people showing support for Hamas at protests?
Sure, if you see them, kick them to the curb. Do you agree that there’s a difference between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas?
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Alright.
Firstly, I think a lot of how you’re framing the pro-Palestine protests is either unfair or inaccurate. That’s not to say that you are being unfair or inaccurate, but the sources where you get your information might be. (I will agree that antisemitism is on the rise, and demands a response. I just see more of it from the right, even from Zionists who either want to remove diasporic Jews or support a model of an ethnostate). So, if you don’t draw a distinction between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas, there’s no conversation to be had, because we’re not really dealing with what protestors do, say, or believe. While you compared this to MAGA, it’s the exact same rhetoric used by MAGA to attack BLM, which itself mirrored the rhetoric used against the Civil Rights Movement.
But it’s also not worth getting into the weeds unless we can find some common ground, so I’d like to ask you the same question again: Is it bad when Israel kills civilians?
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I am perfectly happy with how I presented myself, actually. And I think you also revealed a lot about yourself, too. If you’re happy with what that is, then that’s all there is to it.
I do think it’s worth pointing out that the thing that really seemed to set you off was asking you the same question you asked me. I answered it easily, and you took great offense while hurling insults and misrepresenting positions I’ve already put down in words. Why should I get into the facts when you don’t really care about the facts, or what I have to say?
If the question of whether Israel killing civilians is bad (not even unjustified, not even criminal, just bad) bothers you… maybe that’s a good thing. I certainly have no problem supporting Palestine while condemning Hamas, or supporting Jews while condemning Israel. It’s possible you just didn’t want to voice an unpopular position, but maybe it bothers you that you can’t say “yes, it’s bad.” If that’s the case, keep pulling on that thread. I think you could use some self-reflection, especially given this last post. I’m sorry, but this was a lot of the pot calling the kettle black.
I sincerely hope you have a better tomorrow. I know you’re angry and frustrated, but I hope you can find peace and understanding.
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Operation Al-Aqsa Flood came after fifteen years of Gaza being besieged by the IDF. Yes civilians died in it and that’s tragic, but Hamas did not create the conditions under which the operation occurred, Israel did. Hamas does not have the power and the international backing to end this conflict, Israel does. Hamas has not spent seven and a half decades ethnically cleansing Israelis - Israel has spent that time ethnically cleansing Palestinians.
Anything short of support for Hamas is support for genocide.
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Just off reading headlines…is “entering” and “bombing” the same thing now?
Off headlines not.
Off reality Al Shifa is far more destroyed than the Ukrainian hospital.
Non-combatant body counts?
Far far higher as well. Including israel mass executing women and children.
What Israel did was far worse. They bombed the hospitals, laid siege, raided the hospitals, killed doctors, abducted doctors, tortured patients and staff, and dug mass graves.
i wonder which side this respectable publication is on 🤔
Considering that Netanyahu was having corruption charges levied against him before October 7th… well, from the Israelis I’ve talked to, the intelligence was there to prevent the attack, and the brass let it happen. War time leaders tend to hold on to power a lot easier. In addition to the gas deposits off the Gazan coast, and the whole beach front property development thing that Israeli corporations are advertising. It’s terrible what has been happening in Gaza and the West Bank (obviously) BUUUT, I mean, they’re surrounded by much larger countries that are hostile to them. WHY they are hostile, well, that is where cracking open a history book comes in.
Netanyahu is just the latest in a long list of demons, the invasion of Palestine didn’t start on October 7th.
Terrible is understanding what have been done this will go as the crime of sententry
I mean, it is the classic cycle of human hate right. I talked to a (gorgeous, I will add, sue me, I like pretty girls) Israeli girl for a few months after Oct 7th. Hearing her perspective of things was educating. If I was on a date and had someone at the table next to me get stabbed in the neck by a random passerby, I would be a bit jaded as well. Having regular alarms to hide from missile attacks etc. Obviously, genocide bad. The Palestinians have it far worse, and are being used as proxies by Iran because of the whole mini-cold war that has been going on in the middle east for a while. However, life is rarely black and white. Unless it’s like serial killer/rapist/torturer/illuminati shit. Deprogramming generational hatred on an individual basis takes a great degree of patience and understanding of nuance. Calling all Israelis evil monsters is NOT how you fix the problem, my 2 cents.
I will leave this song here as an example of the Israeli perspective, I thought it was pretty spicy:
In conversations like this where there is a never ending tit-for-tat of violent revenge I wonder why humans in gerneral just can’t stop being shitheads. Palestinians are treated like third-class people, their land slowly stolen, and face constant prejudice. So of course that fuels the violence towards Israel. Then Israel treats Palestinians like shit, and the cycle never stops. Why we have to dig our heels and force the other side to cede first like a couple 5 year olds arguing.
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That’s what you want? No mercy until the people of Palestine are groveling at your feet? Wonder if they’ll ever be low enough for you to offer them that mercy.
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If it’s just about Hamas, then why are they also attacking and taking land in the West Bank? Hamas has no control on influence there, by Israeli design by the way.
If it’s just about Hamas why are IDF soldiers going on social media and celebrating the suffering of civilians, pregnant women and children? Are babies Hamas from the moment of conception?
At least learn some critical thinking skills, snowflake.
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Here, let me say this in all caps because you’re clearly a bit thick and have never opened a history book or a map: BRO HAMAS HAS NEVER OPERATED IN THE WEST BANK.
I bet you don’t even know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza actually. It’s pointless to talk to someone that doesn’t even understand the basics of the geographic location they’re talking about, never mind the geopolitical nuances.
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when the victims are lighter skinned
This is what it is and it’s ironic cause Palestinians aren’t even that dark.
Sudan civil war what? too dark 4 me
When the victims aren’t strategic to US interests*
While that may be partially true, The Guardian ironically has a good opinion piece of the exact quotes being said by news reporter about “European” children getting bombed from 2022. Sometimes it IS related to the colour of their eyes and skin, and dismissive comments like yours come across pretty ignorant.
Some reporters being racist, doesn’t mean that sensibilities of people aren’t moved when it’s non-white people, this was very patent during China’s oppressive policies against Uyghur in Xinjiang. There were years of condemnation and of people calling it genocide, and there was massive outcry here on Reddit. Would you say Uyghur are white, or is it just convenient to remember them and being concerned because the whole thing paints China in a bad light? I didn’t see nearly the same level of outrage during the actual genocide against Rohingya Muslims in south-east Asia.
I wonder how it would read if they quoted the Russian military in the headline on the right.
The Russian story was “defective Ukrainian air defense missle hit hospital”. But since that has now been debunked because of evidence of the missile being Russian. they’ll also just say something about a terrorist base.
Or actually, they will just still say it was a defective air defense missile. Looking at the amount of people here still repeating the lie about the military base it appears not to matter that it gets fully debunked. The drones will repeat anything they are told.
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I could’ve said it’s more complex than that, but both conflicts couldn’t have happened if invaders just haven’t invade.
The Arabs have started every single conflict with the Israelis. It is nothing like Russia and Ukraine.
“The Arabs”, it was a terrorist group that an entire demographic is being punished for (collective punishment is a war crime), 35000 people have been killed, mostly civilians.
Do you think that Israel would be using the same tactics if hamas was hiding among it’s own population?
Yes, it’s genocide.
It depends when you stop, while holding down the rewind button. If you stop at Arab attacks every time you are correct but wrong in doing so
You know, all the conflicts, except the one where an exiting, invasive power, gave massive amounts of their land, to a foreign group of people, who began locking the locals out of as much of the government, and economic, structure as possible. Then started a long string of agreeing to what ethnic group gets what, then forcing them out as the foreigners wanted more land.
The British could have not just given away the land, that other people had occupied for thousands of years, to Europeans they wanted to move somewhere else, because they were in the process of dumping the colony anyways. The European Jews could have realized they were simply replacing an invading power. Decided to work on developing business with the local population, instead of leaning into zionist nationalism, claiming because ancestors, thousands of years ago, once lived there, they were owed it. They decided to take, instead of cooperate. This is the root of this conflict.
This one is a little bit different. I’ve seen claims of Hamas been supported by Israeli admin (against other factions?) and that reports about the preparation of the october attack were ignored. Are these worth the ink they are printed with?
yes, Bibi has sent suitcases of cash to Hamas in the past. It’s really messed up. I should add ‘allegedly’, but it’s not necessary.
Side note that this graph is already 10 years old. It might be a trend…
Well, we have established that the West is racist and supremacist centuries ago, nothing has changed.
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Sure are
Yeah they’re different. Israel killed many times more civilians in a fraction of the time.
The numbers are iffy, but yes, it’s about 4x as many civilians killed in Gaza as Ukraine:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Casualties
The difference being the IDF lying about why they destroyed a hospital and Russia lying about whether they were the ones who destroyed a hospital?
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First, that article is paywalled and the subheading just says that US intelligence confirms a suspicion. US intelligence also said Iraq had WMDs so they aren’t that reliable.
The IDF entering the hospital is a different thing from the complete distruction of the hospital and all of the other hospitals they have destroyed in Gaza. Or all of the other infrastructure they have destroyed, always claiming it was used by Hamas.
The IDF has also lied multiple times about not killing the journalists they have killed. Or the aid convoys they attacked directly despite the IDF knowing they would be trainsporting aid.
They are lying liars and claiming anything is ‘used by Hamas’ should be immediately suspect.
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The article is from January and is speculation. I can’t find an article that says they did find a command bunker and network of tunnels, just a couple about finding a few weapons and communication items plus one unexplored tunnel.
Do you know of a more recent article that confirms there was a command bunker and network of tunnels? It has been 7 months and they spent the time destroying the rest of the hospital so surely there is something confirming that it was a Hamas command bunker and not just stuff left by soldiers who went to a hospital for medical care.
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First, connecting a tunnel to a building doesn’t make the building itself the same thing as whatever the tunnel connects to. By that logic, having a road to a hospital from a military baes makes the hospitsl a valid target.
I didn’t watch the full video, but it sure looked like a long service tunnel, which tons of buildings have. Nothing that justifying destroying an entire hospital complex after they cleared it. Is the IDF unable to close a single tunnel going into a hospital?
Not to mention the part in bold from the article (found out I can get to the text at least through reader mode).
The Israeli military, however, has struggled to prove that Hamas maintained a command-and-control center under the facility. Critics of the Israeli military say the evidence does not support its early claims, noting that it had distributed material before the raid showing five underground complexes and also had said the tunnel network could be reached from wards inside a hospital building. Israel has publicly revealed the existence of only one tunnel entrance on the grounds of the hospital, at the shack outside its main buildings.
Yup, justifying destroying the entire hospital complex because one tunnel connects to a shack outside the main buildings. Really proving your point there!
my favorite is that everybody is referring to the israel palestine thing as a genocide, but i have yet to see anybody piss and shit themselves over what russia is doing to ukraine.
Let alone what russia is doing to it’s own domestic population. Take a guess on how putin is still popular after putting hundreds of thousands of people to death in a needless war.
Huh?? The West has been almost entirely united behind Ukraine. I mean it’s the controversial stuff that gets clicks but there’s plenty of hatred for Russia to go around. Hell there’s graphic videos on Lemmy of Russian soldiers being blown to bits and no one bats an eye.
For one thing, the US sends huge amounts of money to Ukraine for defense against Russia, and huge amounts of money to Israel for “defense” against Palestine. I care way less what people “piss and shit themselves over” than where the material support goes.
this isn’t explicitly true, we spend money on ukraine because russia is illegally invading ukraine, but i’ll give you that one, since most people know that by now.
What we also know, is that russia holding military positions in ukraine, destabilizes the rest of the EU, because now the border states are much more concerned about active invasion. Which disrupts trade, and the global economy, it’s generally a bad thing.
What we know about israel in particular, is that israel is a massive force projector for the US in the middle east, the US is essentially doing their bidding through israel in that regard. If you think the entirety of the bidding that the US is doing is just bombing Palestinians, you probably need to go do some reading.
Like don’t get me wrong, i don’t like it either, i’m not a huge fan, but it’s kind of just the name of the game unfortunately, which btw we have the US retract slightly on it’s stance in the matter, which is a good thing.
quick edit: although to be clear, i was most talking about how people were being overly dramatic about the whole ordeal completely killing any care i had in it at all.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. And I can only laugh when people say shit like “people got too upset that their taxes are funding genocide, and it made me stop caring about the genocide”.
Yeah but Trump would end support to Ukraine.
What does this have to do with my reply or the other user’s comment?
That in the very real and current contest between Biden and Trump that Biden at least supports Ukraine, whereas Trump supports Russia and would likely support Isreal to the extent of starting WWIII in the middle east to bring about the apocalypse for his evangelical base, who earnestly believe they’ll be raptured to heaven while the rest of us live through a nightmarish helscape. Which is looking less crazy by the day because some people won’t vote for an old man who doesn’t 100% align with their political views vs fanatical insanity spearheaded by an also old man.
So nothing, really. I’m also not very convinced that any US president is going to deviate very far from foreign policy status quo-- Trump loves the weapons manufacturers as much as Biden does, and both conflicts are ultimately a gift to them.
yeah and he would also nuke palestine so.
We’re all in the Zone Of Interest now.
but did hamas ever condemn the russian invasion of ukraine? what was the motto on the last CSD in gaza?
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So this piece doesn’t source any evidence that it was used and ignores the literal fact that later investigations by Amnesty didn’t find credible evidence of use as a military base and the massive Israeli misinformation campaign on that front: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_military_use_of_al-Shifa_hospital#:~:text=During the Israel–Hamas war,Hamas and hospital administrators denied.
But yeah let’s justify Israel bombing away access to medical care to people forced into a small, war torn area because fuck Palestinians I guess.
This is highly contested and no credible evidence has been produced for these claims. Israeli propagandists have been hard at work conjuring up lies wholesale and it’s shameful to repeat them without verification.
Al Shifa was home to Hamas torture chambers for a decade at least.
Your link gave one example a decade ago.
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You linked something from a decade ago of something being claimed once, and claimed the link showed it’s been happening for a decade continuously.
I thought you were just confused so I didn’t ban you
If you knew what you were doing, then that was my mistake.
What makes you think they’re still doing it? IDF/Netanyahu saying it without any credible evidence?
Also, what kind of logic justifies attacking a hospital which definitely has victims of Israel’s own relentless attack, on the off chance that the hospital might have terrorists?
