With what you said 1. Someone doesn’t have to be a good person, or be right, to coexist. Sitting at the same table as Pol Pot or Hitler isn’t enabling them.
Unfortunately this is incorrect as far as these ideologies go. They’re fundamentally incompatible with the principles of a free democratic society and so cannot be tolerated by anyone who claims to uphold the values of a free democratic society. If claim to uphold those values, and you’re sitting at the table with those people: No you fucking don’t. “Good person” and “correct” do not enter the equation at any point.
Democracy is essentially always incompatible with a free society in the first place. Eating dinner with a Nazi isn’t helping Nazis seize power. You’ve probably met genuine sociopaths, people who want to kill or severely harm others. Should you pre-judge them? Is that actually useful for anything?
I know someone online who privately admitted to me to being a pedophile, and is very suicidal. They claim to have never victimized anyone, just thought about it. It makes me very uncomfortable. But I also think if I bluntly said that it would make them more self-destructive, feeling more isolated, and feeling more like they shouldn’t be honest. I think that would lead to them being more likely to victimize someone. This isn’t just a utilitarian calculus though, I genuinely do not want them to suffer. Even though they have disgusting thoughts that could manifest in the suffering of others. What would you do?
These things are not comparable. This person you spoke to has urges, not beliefs. He clearly doesn’t believe it’s right to want to fuck kids. Nazism is a personal political view, and that view includes the belief that I don’t have the right to exist. That the people I love don’t have a right to exist. That is not an exaggeration, that is a fact, and you have to accede it as reasonable to work with someone who believes it. I do not, never have and never will, and I’m sick and tired of people pretending like a Nazi will just up and abandon the monstrous core principles of their entire platform. You will never budge them, they will only drag you down to their level if you try. Other opinions are fine; Nazis are not.
It doesn’t matter. I’m sure you can find something wrong with everything. It’s why all these nazis are running around! So many nazis! They’re in my attic making nests!
You, and most others, have clearly forgotten that there is a line and that line is Nazism. Not “everyone is a Nazi”. Just the ones willing to sit by quietly and let them advance their agenda, instead of loudly and violently fighting them at every turn. You might not be able to admit it to yourself, but I don’t concern myself with the opinions of Nazis so I don’t really care what you think about the fact.
I do argue with Nazis. Why do you continue to let them exist.
That’s you trying to deflect.
That’s me saying you have a different definition to accept from me. I consider accepting a belief to be believing the belief is acceptable and sane. I do not accept nazism.
Why are you arguing with me, then, when all I said was that you shouldn’t accept being in the presence of their beliefs? Based on your most recent comments you seem to agree… so what are we doing here? And why are you trying to catch me in some gotcha based on a statement I never made?
And no, accepting a belief means not challenging it, implicitly treating it as normal.
Why are you arguing with me, then, when all I said was that you shouldn’t accept being in the presence of their beliefs?
Okay, so you agree you can accept a person as a human and a friend without accepting their beliefs? Because that’s what I’m saying
And no, accepting a belief means not challenging it, implicitly treating it as normal.
I wouldn’t really agree with that only because its just not your job. You don’t have a responsibility with burdening yourself with constantly correcting others.
So that you aren’t around a Nazi, dude. Normal people don’t want to be around Nazis. Their beliefs are abhorrent. “Abhorrent” means “So horrible I cannot stand even the thought of it”. From everything you’ve been saying though, you don’t find their beliefs abhorrent, just uncomfortable. I really hope you think it through more deeply, because I don’t know why your opinion on mass murder in cold blood is “yeah but if I can get something in return then it’s cool”.
That’s what “work with” these people means. You have to compromise at some point to work with people, and Nazis won’t compromise on the mass murder, so that means you’ll have to.
So that you aren’t around a Nazi, dude. Normal people don’t want to be around Nazis.
I don’t want to be around a Nazi, but I also won’t inherently be against it. I’d rather be friends with a Nazi who’s fun to talk to over a sane person who is boring to talk to. That in no way is an endorsement of their beliefs, and to believe it is the same kind of perversion of tolerance that they usually believe in.
Their beliefs are abhorrent. “Abhorrent” means “So horrible I cannot stand even the thought of it”. From everything you’ve been saying though, you don’t find their beliefs abhorrent, just uncomfortable.
Were they to be enacted they absolutely are.
I really hope you think it through more deeply, because I don’t know why your opinion on mass murder in cold blood is “yeah but if I can get something in return then it’s cool”.
Where did I say that?
That’s what “work with” these people means. You have to compromise at some point to work with people, and Nazis won’t compromise on the mass murder, so that means you’ll have to.
I really don’t know what you mean by “work with”. You were the one who brought it up. The discussion was about eating dinner with a Nazi. So when you first said it I thought you literally meant like a coworker who’s a Nazi. If you mean working with a Nazi to advance Nazi goals, that’s a very different thing. And of course I wouldn’t do that- but its not what the discussion is about.
I’d rather be friends with a Nazi who’s fun to talk to over a sane person who is boring to talk to.
Disgusting, absurd and unrealistic. I can’t imagine compromising on my beliefs simply for… what… entertainment??
“Oh, well, he’d like to kill all the non-whites, but he told a good joke one time.”
Seriously, you must have a severely broken moral compass to think like this.
But even putting all that aside, I can’t imagine a Nazi ever being “fun to talk to”. Fun for them is beating up ethnic minorities. Jokes to them are bullying those who are different.
And you’d just happily nod along to their racist statements about ethnic minorities? Really? Simply because Jim the non-Nazi is, like, a bit boring?
Idk about you, but i consider the moral sanctity of my soul to be far more important than a few minutes of entertainment - which, tbh, I likely wouldn’t even enjoy.
I can’t imagine compromising on my beliefs simply for… what… entertainment??
Where did I compromise on my beliefs?
“Oh, well, he’d like to kill all the non-whites, but he told a good joke one time.”
Seriously, you must have a severely broken moral compass to think like this.
I mean did you see what I said about literally explicitly being okay with being friends with a murderer. If you’re actually curious about why I think like that: I think people are much more multifaceted than most people give credit for. They’re molded by their environment, habits they fall into. I think behaviors and beliefs are closer to habits, or sometimes addictions, to ways of thinking than they are fixed elements of a “personality” or “identity”. I think there are probably many killers who were genuinely sweet, and kind, and caring, to their friends and family- and when they’re like that, that’s just as much them as when they’re doing genuinely evil things. I can see the human while also not enabling the evil.
But even putting all that aside, I can’t imagine a Nazi ever being “fun to talk to”. Fun for them is beating up ethnic minorities. Jokes to them are bullying those who are different.
Yea I agree their sense of humor is often really bad. “N-word == funny” type stuff. But there might be some some actually funny ones. Also the worst thing is how they always want to bring everything back to the jews. Like I can think a movie is bad without wanting to hear a 10 minute rant about how the jews control Hollywood.
And you’d just happily nod along to their racist statements about ethnic minorities?
I mean did you see what I said about literally explicitly being okay with being friends with a murderer. If you’re actually curious about why I think like that: I think people are much more multifaceted than most people give credit for. They’re molded by their environment, habits they fall into. I think behaviors and beliefs are closer to habits, or sometimes addictions, to ways of thinking than they are fixed elements of a “personality” or “identity”. I think there are probably many killers who were genuinely sweet, and kind, and caring, to their friends and family- and when they’re like that, that’s just as much them as when they’re doing genuinely evil things. I can see the human while also not enabling the evil.
Well that’s all very sweet, how nice of you to be so kind to murderers.
But whatever, I just don’t care - you are not beholden to be kind to someone just because they are multifaceted and complete humans. Humans can be evil, and if even one of those “facets” is murdering or a desire for genocide, I have every right to disagree with that. I do not owe anyone my time, or my patience.
And so fucking what if they’re molded by their environment and experiences? Why should I give even the slightest shit if the end result of the molding process was a FUCKING NAZI? I’ve had bad experiences with ethnic minorities and didn’t blame it on their heritage or skin colour. Why should I let them off the hook?
Yea I agree their sense of humor is often really bad. “N-word == funny” type stuff. But there might be some some actually funny ones.
Funny if you’re racist. And again, I do not have to wade through a mile of shit and corpses just because there might be a slice of cake at the end. I am allowed to say “no, fuck off”.
Also the worst thing is how they always want to bring everything back to the jews. Like I can think a movie is bad without wanting to hear a 10 minute rant about how the jews control Hollywood.
Yet another reason not to talk to them outside of berating them.
Where did I say that?
Like I already said: when you said you’d prefer a “fun” nazi to someone else “boring”, and implied by you taking issue with me saying you should either argue or leave. This implies you’d prefer to stay and not argue. And if you’re not arguing with them or leaving, what are you doing? Standing completely still with no words or body language of your own? No, you’re engaging in the conversation.
But whatever, I just don’t care - you are not beholden to be kind to someone just because they are multifaceted and complete humans. Humans can be evil, and if even one of those “facets” is murdering or a desire for genocide, I have every right to disagree with that. I do not owe anyone my time, or my patience.
I agree, you don’t have to. But just because you choose not to, doesn’t make me a nazi if I choose to. That was what this was about, it was never about forcing you.
Funny if you’re racist.
Again they have the capacity to say stuff outside that.
And again, I do not have to wade through a mile of shit and corpses just because there might be a slice of cake at the end. I am allowed to say “no, fuck off”.
And again where did I try to change your mind on that?
Like I already said: when you said you’d prefer a “fun” nazi to someone else “boring”, and implied by you taking issue with me saying you should either argue or leave. This implies you’d prefer to stay and not argue. And if you’re not arguing with them or leaving, what are you doing? Standing completely still with no words or body language of your own? No, you’re engaging in the conversation.
You understand that nazis talk about a weather too? I would do the same as I do with everyone. Make it clear I disagree with what I disagree with, but also have the capacity to talk about other stuff.
With what you said 1. Someone doesn’t have to be a good person, or be right, to coexist. Sitting at the same table as Pol Pot or Hitler isn’t enabling them.
Unfortunately this is incorrect as far as these ideologies go. They’re fundamentally incompatible with the principles of a free democratic society and so cannot be tolerated by anyone who claims to uphold the values of a free democratic society. If claim to uphold those values, and you’re sitting at the table with those people: No you fucking don’t. “Good person” and “correct” do not enter the equation at any point.
Democracy is essentially always incompatible with a free society in the first place. Eating dinner with a Nazi isn’t helping Nazis seize power. You’ve probably met genuine sociopaths, people who want to kill or severely harm others. Should you pre-judge them? Is that actually useful for anything?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q5DoYyV5RU
I know someone online who privately admitted to me to being a pedophile, and is very suicidal. They claim to have never victimized anyone, just thought about it. It makes me very uncomfortable. But I also think if I bluntly said that it would make them more self-destructive, feeling more isolated, and feeling more like they shouldn’t be honest. I think that would lead to them being more likely to victimize someone. This isn’t just a utilitarian calculus though, I genuinely do not want them to suffer. Even though they have disgusting thoughts that could manifest in the suffering of others. What would you do?
These things are not comparable. This person you spoke to has urges, not beliefs. He clearly doesn’t believe it’s right to want to fuck kids. Nazism is a personal political view, and that view includes the belief that I don’t have the right to exist. That the people I love don’t have a right to exist. That is not an exaggeration, that is a fact, and you have to accede it as reasonable to work with someone who believes it. I do not, never have and never will, and I’m sick and tired of people pretending like a Nazi will just up and abandon the monstrous core principles of their entire platform. You will never budge them, they will only drag you down to their level if you try. Other opinions are fine; Nazis are not.
It doesn’t matter. I’m sure you can find something wrong with everything. It’s why all these nazis are running around! So many nazis! They’re in my attic making nests!
You, and most others, have clearly forgotten that there is a line and that line is Nazism. Not “everyone is a Nazi”. Just the ones willing to sit by quietly and let them advance their agenda, instead of loudly and violently fighting them at every turn. You might not be able to admit it to yourself, but I don’t concern myself with the opinions of Nazis so I don’t really care what you think about the fact.
If you sit with someone, and they say “death to all Jews”, and you DON’T immediately argue or leave - you are accepting their beliefs as valid.
No you’re not. That’s just fundamentally untrue. You’re accepting their beliefs if you repeat after them.
No, that’s agreeing.
Then you accept the beliefs of Nazis by your definition. After all, you haven’t killed any yet.
That’s not my definition. That’s you trying to deflect.
No, i neither argue with them of GTFO, like I said.
I do argue with Nazis. Why do you continue to let them exist.
That’s me saying you have a different definition to accept from me. I consider accepting a belief to be believing the belief is acceptable and sane. I do not accept nazism.
Why are you arguing with me, then, when all I said was that you shouldn’t accept being in the presence of their beliefs? Based on your most recent comments you seem to agree… so what are we doing here? And why are you trying to catch me in some gotcha based on a statement I never made?
And no, accepting a belief means not challenging it, implicitly treating it as normal.
Okay, so you agree you can accept a person as a human and a friend without accepting their beliefs? Because that’s what I’m saying
I wouldn’t really agree with that only because its just not your job. You don’t have a responsibility with burdening yourself with constantly correcting others.
It sure is enabling my right to think you’re enabling them. Unless you leave the table once you know who you’re sitting with, I’m judging you. Hard.
What is the point of leaving the table?
So that you aren’t around a Nazi, dude. Normal people don’t want to be around Nazis. Their beliefs are abhorrent. “Abhorrent” means “So horrible I cannot stand even the thought of it”. From everything you’ve been saying though, you don’t find their beliefs abhorrent, just uncomfortable. I really hope you think it through more deeply, because I don’t know why your opinion on mass murder in cold blood is “yeah but if I can get something in return then it’s cool”.
That’s what “work with” these people means. You have to compromise at some point to work with people, and Nazis won’t compromise on the mass murder, so that means you’ll have to.
I don’t want to be around a Nazi, but I also won’t inherently be against it. I’d rather be friends with a Nazi who’s fun to talk to over a sane person who is boring to talk to. That in no way is an endorsement of their beliefs, and to believe it is the same kind of perversion of tolerance that they usually believe in.
Were they to be enacted they absolutely are.
Where did I say that?
I really don’t know what you mean by “work with”. You were the one who brought it up. The discussion was about eating dinner with a Nazi. So when you first said it I thought you literally meant like a coworker who’s a Nazi. If you mean working with a Nazi to advance Nazi goals, that’s a very different thing. And of course I wouldn’t do that- but its not what the discussion is about.
Disgusting, absurd and unrealistic. I can’t imagine compromising on my beliefs simply for… what… entertainment??
“Oh, well, he’d like to kill all the non-whites, but he told a good joke one time.”
Seriously, you must have a severely broken moral compass to think like this.
But even putting all that aside, I can’t imagine a Nazi ever being “fun to talk to”. Fun for them is beating up ethnic minorities. Jokes to them are bullying those who are different.
And you’d just happily nod along to their racist statements about ethnic minorities? Really? Simply because Jim the non-Nazi is, like, a bit boring?
Idk about you, but i consider the moral sanctity of my soul to be far more important than a few minutes of entertainment - which, tbh, I likely wouldn’t even enjoy.
Where did I compromise on my beliefs?
I mean did you see what I said about literally explicitly being okay with being friends with a murderer. If you’re actually curious about why I think like that: I think people are much more multifaceted than most people give credit for. They’re molded by their environment, habits they fall into. I think behaviors and beliefs are closer to habits, or sometimes addictions, to ways of thinking than they are fixed elements of a “personality” or “identity”. I think there are probably many killers who were genuinely sweet, and kind, and caring, to their friends and family- and when they’re like that, that’s just as much them as when they’re doing genuinely evil things. I can see the human while also not enabling the evil.
Yea I agree their sense of humor is often really bad. “N-word == funny” type stuff. But there might be some some actually funny ones. Also the worst thing is how they always want to bring everything back to the jews. Like I can think a movie is bad without wanting to hear a 10 minute rant about how the jews control Hollywood.
Where did I say that?
Having a “fun” conversation with a nazi
Well that’s all very sweet, how nice of you to be so kind to murderers.
But whatever, I just don’t care - you are not beholden to be kind to someone just because they are multifaceted and complete humans. Humans can be evil, and if even one of those “facets” is murdering or a desire for genocide, I have every right to disagree with that. I do not owe anyone my time, or my patience.
And so fucking what if they’re molded by their environment and experiences? Why should I give even the slightest shit if the end result of the molding process was a FUCKING NAZI? I’ve had bad experiences with ethnic minorities and didn’t blame it on their heritage or skin colour. Why should I let them off the hook?
Funny if you’re racist. And again, I do not have to wade through a mile of shit and corpses just because there might be a slice of cake at the end. I am allowed to say “no, fuck off”.
Yet another reason not to talk to them outside of berating them.
Like I already said: when you said you’d prefer a “fun” nazi to someone else “boring”, and implied by you taking issue with me saying you should either argue or leave. This implies you’d prefer to stay and not argue. And if you’re not arguing with them or leaving, what are you doing? Standing completely still with no words or body language of your own? No, you’re engaging in the conversation.
Next paragraph explains
I agree, you don’t have to. But just because you choose not to, doesn’t make me a nazi if I choose to. That was what this was about, it was never about forcing you.
Again they have the capacity to say stuff outside that.
And again where did I try to change your mind on that?
You understand that nazis talk about a weather too? I would do the same as I do with everyone. Make it clear I disagree with what I disagree with, but also have the capacity to talk about other stuff.