I don’t love a bunch of cis people posting shit like this when the 4 anti-trans ballot measures in Arizona, Colorado, and Washington all are about to be passed, including a college level bathroom ban in Arizona. It’s very tone deaf when trans rights (especially for minors) literally lost in a historic blue election.
thank you for saying this - it’s definitely quashing much of the enthusiasm I have for yesterday’s results. A historic blue wave coinciding with continued restriction of our rights in states previously thought “safe” makes me think there will not be much resistance to continued jettisoning of trans rights from the Democratic party.
Yeah I want to be happy, and I am for a lot of places, Texas turning blue has the opportunity to reverse so many of their state level anti-trans laws, a bunch of trans candidates won in red state legislatures, and we had a good number of very vocal trans-allies win in the national elections. But its all very soured by the 4 anti-trans ballot measures that seem likely to pass, the election of extremely transphobic dems like turek and kaptur, and vocal transphobes like acton winning the governorship. The gains for trans rights in red states are exciting, but at the same time a lot of blue states had the opposite.
There is an under appreciation for how many Democrat voters are still white Christians, or in lesser numbers Muslims and immigrants who are conservative but recognize the Republicans as an existential threat. Much of the Blue wave is still people who were gullible enough to believe Trump and that mess but have remembered how to read and do math enough to recognize that the Republicans are hurting them personally and the US in general.
I get the point you’re making, and it is true, but at the same time there’s a propensity for people to focus on how cis people are impacted by transphobic legislation in a way that tends to minimize the impact it has on the trans people its actually targeting. The reason these ballot measures are bad is because they’re discrimination and segregation of trans people. While cis girls will also be impacted by them, the anti-trans laws aren’t bad, they’re bad because trans kids are being barred from sports with their peers and from the necessary medical care they need.
(Also this comment isn’t to attack you in any way, its just worth thinking about how stuff like this is talked about imo)
I agree with both of you - the real focus should be the damage to trans people, but the impact on cis girls is a valuable talking point that can make some people realize that they are hurting their own to spite the other.
I mean in general gender-neutral bathrooms are a lot better due to non-binary people existing (and also are just more private and better in general), but its not super feasable to be able to just replace every public bathroom in the US with them at once. It also doesn’t necessarily address the issue of people not believing trans people are actually their gender (and sex too, the whole “gender is fluid, sex is unchangeable” thing is not really true and is a big part of the issue imo. It’s really the reason that “sex segregation” for sports or women’s spaces feels like something some liberals not educated on trans issues are tricked into believing is reasonable). That last part is a bit of a tangent (sorry lol), but gender neutral restrooms do feel like they’re partially an attempt to dodge actually addressing societal transphobia at large (at least for this one specific topic).
Edit: Oh also forgot to mention, the Arizona bathroom ban is only 1 part of the measure, the main focus is on sports segregation, as are 2 of the other 3 measures (with the 4th being a gender affirming surgery ban for minors in Colorado which also did a sports one). That’s also worth mentioning since for these measures specifically bathrooms were really just a bonus bit of segregation tacked onto measures mostly dealing with sports.
I understand that MtF athletes are exceedingly rare and certainly not an issue worth platforming an entire campaign on (right or left). I identify as a progressive and want to focus on wealth redistribution, green energy, healthcare, and election reform. Can we just say that MtF athletes should complete with cis males or other trans athletes and be done with it? Otherwise we are going to be very divided as a country about something that only affects 1 percent of the population.
Sports are a wedge issue used to open the door to further eroding trans rights is the issue, it’s not something you can compromise on. The reason sports are even something people even have a problem with is due to the fact that most cis people don’t see sex as mutable or trans people as changing their sex, which is the argument behind sports bans, bathroom bans, and other “single sex” spaces like women’s shelters or hospital wards. Any of those spaces banning trans people provably leads to more assaults/rapes, or otherwise materially harms trans people. And even if it somehow didn’t do that, from a moral standpoint it is still discrimination.
A minority being a minority of the population isn’t a reason to ignore those issues, and doing so just opens the door to more discrimination and repression of other groups as well.
All those other issues you listed are also important, but being willing to throw trans people under the bus doesn’t help you accomplish them, all it does it hurt trans people. El-sayed, Mamdani, and a bunch of the progressives that have won recently have done so without needing to abandon trans people, and are better off because of it. If you’re willing to sacrifice a minority’s rights to get elected, all it does is show that you don’t have actual principles and makes me believe you’d abandon other causes you otherwise claim to champion the moment it becomes politically inconvenient. And that goes for any minority, not just trans people.
Also, its worth noting that trans women are women, and that includes physically for stuff like sports. Almost every study done on the topic shows that a trans woman athlete has no statistical advantage over a cis woman one.
Thank you for the well thought out response. I would love to see the studies about trans women athletes having no statistical advantage over cis women if you have them handy. I just want to learn, but unfortunately most people come into these arguments with just disgust and phobia, and I don’t think we should be picking a battle with them at this time. I think that’s a time for when we’ve resolved the issue of the electoral college and restored a true vote for all. If I were trans, I would like to think my vote counting, the climate, or fair pay would be more important to me than playing sports
Here’s an actual study on it. Basically, trans women have slightly more lean muscle on average, but otherwise are statistically the same as a cis woman in terms of actual strength and cardiovascular strength.
Like I said in the previous response as well, its not “just playing sports” the same way segregation wasn’t “just water fountains”. As a trans leftist I will not vote for any candidate who is in favor of sports bans, (as would a lot of other trans people). And trans people tend to be very left leaning, so by espousing those viewpoints it would cost the progressive candidate votes.
After I sent that message, I realized it was not fair for me to ask you to provide sources I could easily look up myself, so I just looked a few up myself and found some similar results as you did. Overall the data is still lacking or incomplete, and you also see studies like this…
Perhaps the NIH (ncbi) has an agenda? It’s been over a decade since I got my BA in neuroscience, but I can see the value of both arguments. I’m sure your qualifications to speak on this are just as high, if not higher than mine.
I get that my logic is not perfect, and I don’t think we should be pandering to the neonazis or the neoliberals. The wisest solution is not always the most logical, however, and we must pick our battles - new ones every few years. We need pragmatic legislation that helps everyone, before we start to address niche difficult issues like transgender equality in sports.
For now, I still think a bandaid solution is best; Trans women of any age cannot compete with cis women unless it’s expressly allowed by the regulatory committee of that particular sport - i.e. in an open division or in a sport where physical traits are not a statistical predictor of success.
That would help liberals and republicans get off this merry-go-round of absurd hypotheticals and focus on the major issues happening now, affecting us all.
Leaving stuff up the governing bodies is literally how it used to be and is the thing trans people are arguing for lol. Republicans want us banned at a federal level.
I don’t love a bunch of cis people posting shit like this when the 4 anti-trans ballot measures in Arizona, Colorado, and Washington all are about to be passed, including a college level bathroom ban in Arizona. It’s very tone deaf when trans rights (especially for minors) literally lost in a historic blue election.
thank you for saying this - it’s definitely quashing much of the enthusiasm I have for yesterday’s results. A historic blue wave coinciding with continued restriction of our rights in states previously thought “safe” makes me think there will not be much resistance to continued jettisoning of trans rights from the Democratic party.
Yeah I want to be happy, and I am for a lot of places, Texas turning blue has the opportunity to reverse so many of their state level anti-trans laws, a bunch of trans candidates won in red state legislatures, and we had a good number of very vocal trans-allies win in the national elections. But its all very soured by the 4 anti-trans ballot measures that seem likely to pass, the election of extremely transphobic dems like turek and kaptur, and vocal transphobes like acton winning the governorship. The gains for trans rights in red states are exciting, but at the same time a lot of blue states had the opposite.
There is an under appreciation for how many Democrat voters are still white Christians, or in lesser numbers Muslims and immigrants who are conservative but recognize the Republicans as an existential threat. Much of the Blue wave is still people who were gullible enough to believe Trump and that mess but have remembered how to read and do math enough to recognize that the Republicans are hurting them personally and the US in general.
So many of these bigotry laws will end up hurting cis girls too (and in larger numbers). People are really stupid.
I get the point you’re making, and it is true, but at the same time there’s a propensity for people to focus on how cis people are impacted by transphobic legislation in a way that tends to minimize the impact it has on the trans people its actually targeting. The reason these ballot measures are bad is because they’re discrimination and segregation of trans people. While cis girls will also be impacted by them, the anti-trans laws aren’t bad, they’re bad because trans kids are being barred from sports with their peers and from the necessary medical care they need.
(Also this comment isn’t to attack you in any way, its just worth thinking about how stuff like this is talked about imo)
I agree with both of you - the real focus should be the damage to trans people, but the impact on cis girls is a valuable talking point that can make some people realize that they are hurting their own to spite the other.
An old quote: “never fight with an idiot, to hurt you they would also hurt themselves”
A completely fair point.
Any anti-trans laws hurt all cis women period. I can’t believe they actually agree on mandatory genital exams for ALL girls who play sport. Madness.
It’s going to take at least two decades to begin to fix the education issue that lead to that outcome
Would a good solution just be to make all bathrooms gender neutral, and use more private stalls with concierge service like they do in Japan?
I mean in general gender-neutral bathrooms are a lot better due to non-binary people existing (and also are just more private and better in general), but its not super feasable to be able to just replace every public bathroom in the US with them at once. It also doesn’t necessarily address the issue of people not believing trans people are actually their gender (and sex too, the whole “gender is fluid, sex is unchangeable” thing is not really true and is a big part of the issue imo. It’s really the reason that “sex segregation” for sports or women’s spaces feels like something some liberals not educated on trans issues are tricked into believing is reasonable). That last part is a bit of a tangent (sorry lol), but gender neutral restrooms do feel like they’re partially an attempt to dodge actually addressing societal transphobia at large (at least for this one specific topic).
Edit: Oh also forgot to mention, the Arizona bathroom ban is only 1 part of the measure, the main focus is on sports segregation, as are 2 of the other 3 measures (with the 4th being a gender affirming surgery ban for minors in Colorado which also did a sports one). That’s also worth mentioning since for these measures specifically bathrooms were really just a bonus bit of segregation tacked onto measures mostly dealing with sports.
I understand that MtF athletes are exceedingly rare and certainly not an issue worth platforming an entire campaign on (right or left). I identify as a progressive and want to focus on wealth redistribution, green energy, healthcare, and election reform. Can we just say that MtF athletes should complete with cis males or other trans athletes and be done with it? Otherwise we are going to be very divided as a country about something that only affects 1 percent of the population.
Sports are a wedge issue used to open the door to further eroding trans rights is the issue, it’s not something you can compromise on. The reason sports are even something people even have a problem with is due to the fact that most cis people don’t see sex as mutable or trans people as changing their sex, which is the argument behind sports bans, bathroom bans, and other “single sex” spaces like women’s shelters or hospital wards. Any of those spaces banning trans people provably leads to more assaults/rapes, or otherwise materially harms trans people. And even if it somehow didn’t do that, from a moral standpoint it is still discrimination.
A minority being a minority of the population isn’t a reason to ignore those issues, and doing so just opens the door to more discrimination and repression of other groups as well.
All those other issues you listed are also important, but being willing to throw trans people under the bus doesn’t help you accomplish them, all it does it hurt trans people. El-sayed, Mamdani, and a bunch of the progressives that have won recently have done so without needing to abandon trans people, and are better off because of it. If you’re willing to sacrifice a minority’s rights to get elected, all it does is show that you don’t have actual principles and makes me believe you’d abandon other causes you otherwise claim to champion the moment it becomes politically inconvenient. And that goes for any minority, not just trans people.
Also, its worth noting that trans women are women, and that includes physically for stuff like sports. Almost every study done on the topic shows that a trans woman athlete has no statistical advantage over a cis woman one.
Thank you for the well thought out response. I would love to see the studies about trans women athletes having no statistical advantage over cis women if you have them handy. I just want to learn, but unfortunately most people come into these arguments with just disgust and phobia, and I don’t think we should be picking a battle with them at this time. I think that’s a time for when we’ve resolved the issue of the electoral college and restored a true vote for all. If I were trans, I would like to think my vote counting, the climate, or fair pay would be more important to me than playing sports
Here’s an actual study on it. Basically, trans women have slightly more lean muscle on average, but otherwise are statistically the same as a cis woman in terms of actual strength and cardiovascular strength.
Like I said in the previous response as well, its not “just playing sports” the same way segregation wasn’t “just water fountains”. As a trans leftist I will not vote for any candidate who is in favor of sports bans, (as would a lot of other trans people). And trans people tend to be very left leaning, so by espousing those viewpoints it would cost the progressive candidate votes.
After I sent that message, I realized it was not fair for me to ask you to provide sources I could easily look up myself, so I just looked a few up myself and found some similar results as you did. Overall the data is still lacking or incomplete, and you also see studies like this…
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7846503/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9331831/
Perhaps the NIH (ncbi) has an agenda? It’s been over a decade since I got my BA in neuroscience, but I can see the value of both arguments. I’m sure your qualifications to speak on this are just as high, if not higher than mine.
I get that my logic is not perfect, and I don’t think we should be pandering to the neonazis or the neoliberals. The wisest solution is not always the most logical, however, and we must pick our battles - new ones every few years. We need pragmatic legislation that helps everyone, before we start to address niche difficult issues like transgender equality in sports.
For now, I still think a bandaid solution is best; Trans women of any age cannot compete with cis women unless it’s expressly allowed by the regulatory committee of that particular sport - i.e. in an open division or in a sport where physical traits are not a statistical predictor of success.
That would help liberals and republicans get off this merry-go-round of absurd hypotheticals and focus on the major issues happening now, affecting us all.
Leaving stuff up the governing bodies is literally how it used to be and is the thing trans people are arguing for lol. Republicans want us banned at a federal level.