Itās one thing to have differing views, but Iāve seen enough attempted reddit migrations to be relieved that the popular communities in the fediverse so far havenāt been about crazy racist stuff or other extreme right bullshit.
I am also glad that Iām getting away from redditās general political shitposting, which was more left leaning. You couldnāt have any proper discourse on there, and even I with my generally more left leaning views recognized that.
Through constant vigilance, anyways. Every time you see some little fuck dogwhistling about FREE SPEECH or CENSORSHIP, you gotta make sure they arenāt welcome in these parts.
I left reddit because of the censorship there and the freedom here. how does that make one a nazi wtf o_O
fascism doesnt play fair in the marketplace of ideas, if you invite a nazi to sit at your table youāve made it a nazi table. free speech is necessary and important, but we still draw lines for things like defamation and hate speech. another line is not offering a platform to fascists, they arent entitled to a seat at the table to spread fud.
youāre like ābut iām not a naziā , great, letās keep it that way.
Importantly, āfree speechā is about government, not privately owned spaces.
We believe the government should not be given the power to censor speech, because people are born into it without a choice. Governments could use this power nefariously, and their citizens would have no meaningful recourse.
Nobody is born into Reddit or kbin or Lemmy. If someone doesnāt like the rules of a given instance, they are welcome to leave and free themselves of this burden.
how did this discussion devolve into Nazis? Iām afraid youāre probably part of the problem.
Like the title said, it basically started off with Nazism. No devolution of discussion required.
What stuff of yours was censored?
That is the key question.
I was banned from a bunch of subs all at once because I said in one (Iām still not sure which one), that I donāt think children should undergo gender or sex transition.
What a boring and unnecessary opinion to have. Youāre not their doctor, they arent your patients, what business is it of yours? and to go on about sharing that uneducated, untrained, unsolicited opinion online and then complaining about censorship when your medical advice is not well receivedā¦ I just canāt wrap my head around the entitlement.
You have some points, but ānot well recievedā would be downvotes. I think banning is censorship and can be a fair complaint.
With that said, maybe the sub had posted rules that were violated. It isnāt like OP couldnāt create their own sub if that was the situation.
Banning people from communication spaces though should be a concerning behavior. It goes both ways.
If your goal is to have a safe space for an oppressed minority group to express themselves, allowing transphobes to go about ājust asking questionsā and harassing people shuts down conversation of a group that actually has their freedom of expression threatened. Allowing harassment is more censorship than banning it. And no one should have the expectation of being able to just go into anyoneās house and shit on their floor without consequence. And that might mean being banned from going to all of their friendās houses as well.
But you donāt know what they said or what the community was. You are missing my general point. Please donāt support general fascism behavior, whether it is from the right or left.
On top of that, this isnāt somebodyās house. That isnāt a good analogy.
They already said quite clearly that theyāre transphobic. The āI donāt think children should undergo gender or sex transitionā is almost verbatim an anti-trans talking point.
Hereās some actual research on the subject of trans people, including trans youth, and suicide risk. With citations;
Hereās a study showing that children know what gender they prefer and donāt change their minds on it.
Hereās another meta study on trans youth who received gender-affirming care, and who saw a decrease in suicide risk.
They repeated what they said, which is good enough reason to ban them from dozens of communities. People generally portray themselves in the least controversial light possible in these circumstances, so thatās the best case scenario.
Many subreddits are the personal spaces of groups of people. Doesnāt matter whether itās literally a physical house someone lives in or a metaphorical home for marginalized people. Itās still their personal space. Theyāre justified in excluding people even for trivial reasons such as liking the number 7. Blatant transphobia is an obvious reason to ban people from such spaces.
Blocking people from harassing marginalized people is not fascism. Excusing the persecution of marginalized people otohā¦
I have opinions on when and how children should be allowed to access cigarettes, alcohol, and motorcycles. Are those opinions also boring, unnecessary, and entitled?
If that medical opinion wasnāt backed up by doctors and the majority of the medical community, Iād imagine that opinion probably would be.
The medical opinion backed up by doctors and the majority of the medical community used to be that alcohol for minors was fine and that cigarettes were good for you.
The medical community is perfectly capable of being wrong and prescribing societal dogma over anything else.
Youāre dismissing all of modern medicine there, which IMO is even worse. Knowledge might change, but until it does, we have to follow the current state of science. Otherwise weāre back to guesswork.
ok, so if youāre not a doctor you can have no opinion on healthcare now? ridiculous statement. i think healthcare should be free. i donāt work in healthcare or health insurance. so am i just supposed to shut the fuck up and know my place?
no, I have my opinion and Iām going to share it and @JasSmith has his opinion and heās going to share it. thatās the whole point of having discussion boards. the last thing i want is this place to become an echo chamber
i think kids should be able to transition. but itās also not so simple a conversation when youāre making permanent changes to teenage kids - https://nypost.com/2022/06/18/detransitioned-teens-explain-why-they-regret-changing-genders/
kids are fickle creatures and fads catch on - all of a sudden we see a dramatic rise in kids wanting to transition - like 4400% increase in girls wanting to transition to boys. is it because we are now more accepting as a society or is it social contagion? probably both and itās a serious topic we need to address if we actually do want the best for the kids. we need to keep ideology out of healthcare and make sure each individual kid is taken care of with whatever is best for them - transitioning is not always the best option. but sometimes it is.
Itās so funny to me this person donāt ever seem to have the same concerns about the nose jobs, boob jobs, lip enhancements, etc that are also being done on teens AND CHILDREN. I hear nothing from you about the performance enhancing drugs for teenage boys, or the altering of the bodies of gymnasts who also start in their early childhood. In the case of the latter, they get stunted growth because the intensive amount of training affects hormones and delays puberty. Gee what other thing that you argue about sounds similar to that?
Maybe you didnāt know about those things before. Iāll give you the benefit of the doubt. But now I fully expect that you go to all of gymnastics forums where theyāre talking about young female gymnasts and male athletes,l and tell them that you donāt think they should do those sports anymore. Youāre totally going to do that right? Right?
I mean the top comment is a guy who was banned because of his opinion on gender/sex transitionā¦ And the person you answered to expressed their opinion on that topic. Why would they talk about nose jobs or whatever? If you want to discuss these topics why not ask them about it instead of assuming their political agenda? Not saying I agree with them, but thatās not how debates work.
Sure, I can go harass people on gymnastics forums if thatās what you want. But in that case itās only fair that I start harassing people on trans forums as well. I wasnāt doing either of those things before, but you said I have to so I guess itās time to go bully some trans people.
I have no problem with condemning the people who push children into intensive training for competition gymnastics. And no, I donāt believe them either when they argue that āthe child wanted this.ā The parents wanted a child who fits a certain mold and the child is just trying to make their parents happy, or atleast not angry depending on how externally abusive that parent is being.
Also I absolutely support the idea of banning under 18s from getting nose jobs, boob jobs, lip fillers, taking PEDs, etc. Heck throw in piercings and tattoos as well for all I care. No procedure and no parental permission exceptions.
I mean, you donāt know me, or youād know that I also think those things are wrong. I also tell people that I think those things are wrong. Donāt you?
we arenāt seeing a 4000% increase in kids becoming gymnasts
itās a poignant social topic. instead of attacking my credibility, aiming to represent me as biased, you should try to attack my argument
having said that, i support kids transitioning. iām more upset about the āwrongthinkā mentality where someone canāt even share their opinion without getting pounced on. he isnāt sharing hate speech heās just talking
Indeed, Iāve been finding myself hesitant to chime in on this because I know Iām inevitably going get lumped in with transphobe Nazi facists because at some point Iām going to say āhey hang on, thereās some nuance here that youāre missing.ā
we arenāt seeing a 4000% increase in kids wanting to transition
Can you cite a source on that number
See the problem here is that you forgot that opinions are only allowed to include concerns or nuances that are on the approved list.
Anything you might be concerned about that isnāt on the approved list puts you straight into wrongthink, double plus ungood.
The problem is that thereās a very big difference between wanting a blanket ban on transition preparation and wanting the actual people involved (the trans kid, the parents, and the doctors) to do a better job of evaluating the situation and working out the best path for each case.
While your opinion may be more reasonable you should be careful to not assume they share your opinion. A lot of people donāt realize that the common choice for ātransitionā treatments for teens does not transition them, but rather delays/suppresses puberty in such a way that they can choose which way to go at a later time. Banning this treatment forces a choice and disallows a trans personās ability to fully transition once of age.
Ah yes the great source of the New York post. I donāt think you are being harmful on purpose but I do believe that by spreading shit like this you are harming trans people. There is no trans epidemic or social fad. That opinion is absolutely ridiculous. I have a close family member who is trans and the difficulty of even getting hormones is extreme. Multiple meetings with psychologists and endocrinologist, many exams and paperwork, not even mentioning the bureaucracy you have to deal with afterwards. And this is as an adult, transitioning as a minor is way way harder. No one just gets transitioned in an accident, and 99% donāt regret it. Now on the flip side 30-50% of trans kids want to commit suicide due to societal pressure and bullying. The only ācureā for gender dysphoria is, shocking I know, transitioning. So when people say to protect trans kids, itās literally protecting them from self harm or from getting attacked. Also, do you really think that more people identify as trans because itās a āfadā or maybe itās because your can finally openly talk about it! Itās like saying that the rise of left handed people after them not being retrained in school anymore is a social fad. Itās a stupid opinion. Whenever you have more societal acceptance of something more people will feel safe coming out. I understand that some people are scared of their kids being transed by the woke liberal teachers but the same people also think that Obama turned the frogs gay.
Are you questioning that Chloe exists? Sheās been speaking at length about her de-transition because the whole experience has destroyed her body permanently. You can read about her on her Wikipedia page. Itās cool to question sources, but you didnāt even take a sec on Google to check if your ad hominem attack was valid.
Here is another example. Sweden went all-in on ātemporaryā puberty blockers for gender affirming care until children started experiencing life-long injuries. They are now effectively banned for gender affirming care for children.
Chloeās case is a tragedy, for sure. The issue I have is that people are calling for bans rather than enhanced oversight.
Healthcare, at its core, is a numbers game. No effective treatment weāve ever discovered is completely without risk. Every surgery or treatment, no matter how innocuous, could lead to complications or death. To use a recent example, the Covid vaccinations. Theyāre considered extremely safe, and over 13 billion vaccination doses have been given to date with over 5 billion people having been vaccinated. Given that Covid kills or permanently disables 2 in every 100 unvaccinated people, and vaccines lower that rate by at least 90%, thatās nearly 100 million lives that have been safeguarded by the vaccine. However, the vaccine has certainly harmed some people with extremely rare side effects. We accept that tradeoff, because saving 100 million lives is worth the risk of harming a few thousand people.
Gender affirming care for children is the same thing. We know that trans children are at extremely elevated risks of self harm and suicide, and gender affirming care is proven to be effective in preventing those outcomes. We know that some will regret their decision to transition because those cases are inevitable in any population that transitions. The focus should be on reducing the cases of regret with better screening and more oversight.
So, to debate this seriously, you need to answer the following question:
How many regretful de-transitioners are you willing to risk in order to save the lives of successful transitioners?
If the answer is zero, then youāre not willing to seriously debate the use of a medical treatment and your opinion is dogmatic and carries no semantic value.
If the answer is very few, then congratulations, youāre on the same side as many allies who want more funding for care and screening for trans issues.
Chloe would have likely been helped by more psychiatric care and screening, as from her story itās clear that her sexual assault as a minor precipitated a complex regarding her sexuality that was misdiagnosed as a desire to transition.
i think itās both. i donāt know at what ratio, but kids really do follow fads. one kid kills themselves at a school and it raises the chances for all of them to do so. ideas are contagious. a kid that may just be going through the regular teenage angst period searching for an identity might latch onto the trans label to explain their feelings when really itās just a normal teenage thing to go through identity issues
again, iām not trying to say kids shouldnāt transition. i view transitioning as healthcare so to block kids off from it is absurd. but i think we also need to be careful and talk about the elephant in the room - that the rate of trans kids increasing so dramatically points to some issues with the ways we are doing it. when something jumps up so dramatically we should be asking questions
Itās like the prevalence of left-handedness shot up dramatically once it was socially acceptable. You canāt look at changes alone and say that things changing is a concern because itās changing.
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Lmao, yeah you deserved to have your trash take ācensoredā. Gender affirming care saves lives, and has a less than 1% āregret rateā. For reference, knee replacements have about a 15% rate. Shocking how trans-inclusive spaces donāt want transphobes around.
I get why subs that consider themselves safe spaces for trans folk would ban you for that.
Transitions are Never done willy nilly. Several doctors and psychologists will be in contact with that person before. If they agree it is fine, as Healthcare professionals, then it must be that forcing the person to stay their birth gender will do more harm
I think the problem with your opinion is that it conveys that you believe children are being throw into surgery rooms and given sex transitions loosely and without thought to the consequences.
I think your real opinion is that you believe children shouldnāt be given unnecessary surgeries. If that is true, the large majority of the population would agree with you.
In addition, have you explored what Doctors believe is a necessary sex transition for a child? What are those parameters? If you donāt know, then I would consider your original stance to be of ignorance. Since you really never dive into the subject, most people will assume that you havenāt explored those parameters and donāt understand the reasoning behind them. That is why youāre facing aggression with your opinion.
Youāre entitled to your opinion, but the consensus among the medical and scientific communities is that you are wrong. They are the experts here, not you. At some point, blindly repeating falsehoods based on prejudice stops being an avenue for constructive debate and instead just wastes everybodyās time and makes people angry for no reason.
Youāre advocating against life-saving treatments. Of course youāre going to get shit on.
Yes, but the ācensorshipā and āfreedomsā they talk about isnāt about malicious censorship (I.e. Spez going around quietly editing dissenting comments) or freedom about how our content is used (I.e. Reddit refusing to let people delete their comments).
Their version is about spreading misinformation and hate speech of all kinds, alongside racist and facist ideologies unfiltered and unimpeded. Theyāre malicious actors acting like victims.
We donāt want any of that, we want all folks to feel welcome, which is why we have to shoot that down. To maintain a tolerant society, we must only be intolerant of the intolerant.
Karl popper babyyyy
Going to bring it up again, the Paradox of Tolerance disappears when you consider tolerance a social contract rather than a moral standard.
Nazis base their identity and politics around not tolerating the presence of various minorities, and therefore arenāt entitled to tolerance themselves.
TERFs base their identity and politics areound not tolerating trans people, and therefore arenāt entitled to tolerance themselves.
Furries donāt base their identity on excluding, invalidating or persecuting someone else, so furries are entitled to tolerance.
So, the furry boards stay but we need to defederate Nazis and TERFs.
In my experience, the people ranting about āfree speechā the loudest are the most flagrant violators of the āmy right to move my arms ends at your noseā maxim.
??? wat
āFar right buffooneryā starts with people batching about how theyāre being āāācensoredāāā for saying slurs or trying to have āhonest conversations about raceā or whatever.
Nip 'em in the bud and voila, no Nazis on your kbin.
Obligatory nazi bar story copypasta:
I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, āno. get out.ā
And the dude next to me says, āhey iām not doing anything, iām a paying customer.ā and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, āout. now.ā and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed
Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, āyou didnāt see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them.ā
And i was like, ohok and he continues.
"you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and itās always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you donāt want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.
And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And itās too late because theyāre entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.
And i was like, āoh damn.ā and he said āyeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people.ā
And then he went back to ignoring me. But I havenāt forgotten that at all.
Fascinating tale! Wow so maybe the bartender didnāt hate anyone just a crotchety guy whoās nevertheless pretty decent at his core.
that bartender was a real one. bravo.
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thats weird. i never get called a fascist, and nobody i know gets called fascists, and iāve never had to worry about other people calling me a fascist when i disagree with them. huhā¦
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iāll drop the tone. iāve looked at your other comments, have a general clue about what youāre about. iāll just say this: there are specific patterns of behavior and ideas which are either attributed to or linked to the Nazi Party, or more generally to fascist ideologies, which have, throughout history, led to oppressive regimes. when people see these patterns or ideas expressed, there is a tendency on the left to reject these ideas because of that association, because they have proved to be potent tools for the spread of fascism, and encourage the dehumanization of minority groups.
transphobia, and specifically appeals to the pedophilic nature of queer people? this is unambiguously Nazi shit. trans people were the some of the very first people the naziās actually threw into concentration camps in nazi germany. this process included the burning of medical literature describing the proper treatment of transgender people. it also included the denial of an explicit description of the gender spectrum, as observed by medical professionals of the time. so if you are dismissive of or make a political issue out of trans identity, call queer people groomers, any of that bullshit, even if you are ānot a naziā, many of the information sources publishing anti-trans rhetoric today have explicit ties to real neo-nazi organizations, or are politically aligned with movements calling for the āeradicationā of āāātransgenderismāāā.
to anybody with an education on the historical circumstances of Nazi Germany, this exact rhetoric and the modern political movement against trans people, is unambiguously mirrored by the actions of modern republican politicians, including legislating restrictions against cross-dressing (happened in nazi germany), restricting transgender medical care (happened in nazi germany), and revoking the ability for trans people to be recognized legally as trans (happened in nazi germany). people who are queer or trans both do not necessarily want to be confronted with this rhetoric wherever they go online, as it can be extremely distressing seeing people parroting literal nazi talking points in the modern era, and do not want that kind of rhetoric to spread, because it was nazi propaganda that lead to the execution of human beings.
while theoretically somebody might āmisuseā this label, call somebody a transphobe or a nazi when they arenāt explicitly talking about this stuff, you may be able to follow the logic from here. if transphobia, questioning the validity of transgender identity, calling for the restriction of transgender medical care, restricting access to books about queer people, if this has explicit links to nazi ideology and activity, what do you call people that want to open up a space for these people to spread their beliefs? what do you call people who accommodate or legitimize these beliefs which have led to the genocide of people groups? well, for a lot of people, if you accommodate the people who accommodate the fascists, that really isnāt that different from letting the fascists run about.
maybe you donāt think of yourself as somebody who does that. maybe you really do think of yourself as a moderate who wants productive discourse, and believes that if everybody just talked to each other, all these political divisions would be easier for us to solve. for the people who would be impacted by the threat of violence behind these beliefs, that isnāt so easy. for the people who see the striking similarity between the modern transgender panic and the genocidal escalation of yesteryear, it isnāt worth the risk to allow in the would be monsters, willing to execute the people who are not like them, even if that means that some reasonable people are caught in the crossfire. hopefully that gives you at least some insight into why productive dialogue isnāt a very convincing argument on this side of the fence. youāve called yourself a moderate in other posts. tell me, what is the moderate position between genocide and tolerance? between eradication and acceptance? if youāre moderate about that shit? well, that just sounds like bigotry to me.
i would encourage you, if you arenāt just a nazi concern troll, to look into the Institut fur Sexualwissenschaft, and the history behind the persecution of transgender and gay people in nazi germany, and try to conceive of why people believe that they are right in rejecting those who display sympathy towards the right wing of the United States, especially in light of their modern retreading of old bigotry. i would love to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they are truly just advocates for free speech, concerned about authoritarian censorship, all that jazz, but the content of what opinions people like you are defending the right to have are historically ruinous for minority groups, a harbinger of a horrifically violent regime which killed countless people, and burned the records of what had been learned about their humanity.
Thereās a Lemmy instance perfect for you then: exploding-heads.
We are more than welcome to decide what behavior is and isnāt appropriate in our own community. If you donāt like it, then you donāt have to be here. You arenāt entitled to our friendship.
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Discourse canāt exist when one party believes the other party has no right to exist
Yes exactly. Both sides need to take a long look in the mirror and stop projecting their self hatred on the other side.
If me and you are having a discussion, but the topic is the fact that I want to kill you, how long will it take before you stop wanting to talk to me?
āBut itās just words!ā
Well, we know thatās not true, so how long would it take before you stopped wanting to be around me?
Oh, also I promote pediphelia. Just as a little fun thing. Just the casual story of raping kids.
I get the appeal. I do. I 1000% do. I get it. But also fuck Nazis. I donāt want to be around them. Iām gay, so they donāt want to be around me. Fuck pedophiles. I donāt want to be around them. So if a site is filled with Nazis and pedophiles, Iām gonna go to a different site. Now you have an echo chamber of Nazis and pedophiles. The thing you wanted to avoid. But youāre stuck with only talking to Nazis and pedophiles.
Meanwhile the bubble without Nazis is a really large bubble encompassing everything except Nazis and pedophiles.
Which hardly looks like a bubble.
Iām not advocating for unchallenged platforms for nazis. What Iām concerned about is the dangerous broadening of the term ānaziā to include any viewpoint differing from oneās own. Neither you nor I hold all the answers. However, Iām not the one categorizing wide-ranging groups as ānazisā to conveniently dismiss dissenting views, while complacently considering myself superior to all those being arbitrarily mislabeled as ānazisā. It SERIOUSLY weakens your entire argument when you throw that word around so carelessly.
Well we donāt use it for just anyone who has any different opinion. So the problem right there is solved. We do use it frequently. But thatās when we see thing like homo/transphobia(Nazis hated queer people), antisemitism(another group Nazis hated), racism(also Nazis), and sexism(once again, Nazis). There seems to be a pretty fucking large overlap of what modern day Republicans preach and what the Nazis preached. Including as of lately āeradicating transgendernessā and āerasing communities.ā As well as the amount of terrorist attacks that ha e actively been encouraged.
So if you would prefer we could just call everyone bigot, since that includes them all and not everyone personally considers themselves a Nazi, but I hardly see the difference between a Nazi, the KKK, Proud Boys, 3%ers, etc, when they all preach the exact same stuff. At that point youāre not arguing anything except semantics. Itās like the whole ārace realismā thing. Itās racism, but more palatable to racists who think the name racist is mean, but not the mentality.
I guess another way to look at it is as people keep bringing up, but thereās a German saying about this. If you have a table with 9 people and 1 Nazi, you have 10 Nazis.
This also doesnāt change the actual argument being made, which is about a forum that is open. In which case, you do get Nazis. Like not even what we mean when we call Nazis as Nazis, but people who call themselves Nazis. We have seen that over and over and over. You get Nazis, and you get pedophiles. Then everyone else starts to leave and you are stuck with Nazis and pedophiles.
So once again, I get the mentality behind it. In a lot of ways I would love a site like that. But itās also a little different for those of us that are having people call for our deaths on a regular basis.
Youāve already been given a suggestion for just that kind of instance. If you want to see that kind of content, thereās a spot for that.
Or are you just upset that there are places who donāt welcome those kinds of dumbfuck takes? Is it that you want to see the content for yourself, or that you want to make the content and force everyone to see it?
Either way, this instance isnāt the place for you. Exploding heads is. Go there, be happy.
The issue I have with this overzealousness to censor is that the people who are most eager to censor others, are often the most bigoted, hateful, and misinformed. The suggestion of going to exploding-heads is just dishonest. They are undeniably right-wing. What I wish for is an open platform where left and right can speak freely to each other in polite discourse, not simply just be exposed to whatever dogshit takes some far right people post. going to exploding-heads would then limit my ability to see other positions.
Are you suggesting that I should have an account on each fediverse instance, just to get all of the content? If so, then what the actual fuck is the point of federation in the first place?
Oh, I see. Youāre delusional. You honestly think I should be having āpolite discourseā with people who either want me dead, or are ok with voting for people who want me dead.
Because, see, whatās left? What makes a Republican want to claim to be a Republican other than the culture war bullshit? What do they stand for? They havenāt stood for āfiscal responsibilityā or āsmall governmentā since W was in office. The straight-up write things like āWe stand against teaching critical thinking in schoolsā (see: Texas GOP party platform) into their guiding documents. And you think theyāre going to have a civil conversation? You think I owe them a civil conversation?
Every server we allow those people on freely will become exploding heads or 4 chan. Go look at r/politicalcompassmemes if you need an example. I donāt know how many times we have to watch it happen before you get the picture, or maybe this is your first ever internet community experience. But youāre wrong. Their bad-faith rhetoric, carefully-stated death threats, and direct personal attacks will drive everyone who isnāt one of them away, leaving only Nazis. If the admins call them out and ban them for that stuff, theyāll end up banning all of them and weāll be having this same conversation. If the admins allow their speech, but donāt allow us to say āFuck off, weeb, nobody likes youā without censure, then guess who gets to control the ādiscourseā? And if the admins donāt ban anyone for it, weāll become Voat. Since only the slimiest members of humanity can tolerate that vibe for long, guess who ends up owning the server by default?
You wanna see that shit, you enjoy being called slurs and told to go kys, you are free to seek out the communities who will do that for you. But fuck all the way off with telling me I must put up with it, too.
Oh, I can block them? No I fucking canāt. I blocked you days ago, and your shit still shows up in my notifications. So, again, fuck off. If I have to listen to whatever dumb shit spills out of your brain, against my will, then you get to listen to my toxicity.
ā¦youā¦ honestly thoughtā¦ the fediverseā¦ was supposed to be a centralized content aggregatorā¦?
Whatā¦ uh, so, whatā¦ what do you think the fediverse is?
Do you prefer having a centralized authority dictating your exposure to content? What prevents you from personally blocking instances you disagree with and allowing others to make their own choices? Is it possible that the idea of critical thinking is discomforting and itās more convenient to be shielded from diverging opinions, rather than exercising personal discernment?
The community itself is kindly asking you to fuck off with its comments and downvotes, no central authority needed
Blocking a person or instance still allows the bigotry to spread.
Fuck off to your sad shithole, nobody has any obligation to be nice to Nazis. To the contrary, every decent person should feel obligated to strongly tell them to fuck off. You donāt have a space here, we donāt want you here, you are not welcome.
Like, you mean, a website? Thatās what you mean by ācentralized authorityā, right? A website? With its Terms and Conditions, following the applicable copyright and IP laws, following the relevant laws of the jurisdiction it operates in? Yeah, Iām fine with that.
If youāre not, go to Exploding Heads. They welcome you. They want you.
We donāt.
I donāt think I jive with the notion that kbin is somehow āaboveā hating Nazis.
How do we define ānaziā and who is the authority that applies that label? If the word ānaziā is carelessly applied to anyone exhibiting even slightly right-leaning tendencies, it diminishes its significance and undermines your credibility. This kind of naive approach and severe lack of nuance will lead to an intolerant echo chamber.
Fuck nazis, but also fuck anyone who dilutes the meaning by inappropriately labeling any viewpoint they donāt like as nazism or fascism.
Carefully, on a case-by-case basis; and the community.
Itās not nearly as complicated as it seems on the surface - and youāre trying to make any definition of ānaziā as complicated as possible, because youāre wanting to delegitimize any rejection of nazis or nazi speech.
Remember how you said you donāt care if people like you, you just want to push your topics on other people?
No one cares if the Nazis think theyāre ācredibleā or not. Each and every one of them will tell you theyāre not a nazi and they āhateā nazis - while defending themselves and their nazi buddies from critique by insisting the label for their ideology is, for example, ācheapenedā if applied to anyone who is not a card-carrying, armband-wearing, farcical exaggeration of stereotypical Nazis in full Reich dress regalia.
They always send the clean cut, quiet, polite one in first. And that guy puts a foot in the door, argues that their pals arenāt really nazis, and that everyone in the room are the real baddies for judging those other guys unfairly - and tries to pry the door wider so their Nazi buddies can come in. Sure enough, every time, you let enough nazis in the room and the room is a nazi space now - so the whole gang of them donāt have to pretend at being polite non-nazis anymore. The polite veneer, the deep care for ādebateā, and ārespect for all viewpointsā? Those are all just tools, trying to whitewash and re-legitimize an ideology whose end goal is harming other people.
Notice how Iām casually referring to you like youāre one of them? Thatās not some wokist over-use of the term. Youāre standing here defending them, youāre trying to shove a foot in the door for them, laying down apologia for their views and their right to share them - youāve spent like a week around the Fediverse arguing against any actions that have served to limit Nazis access to polite and adult spaces within the Fediverse as a whole. I donāt care what you believe about yourself, or your views, or your ideology.
If youāre going to stand with Nazis, if youāre going to stand for them, consistently and repeatedly - donāt get all offended and playact at being victimized when people assume that you are a member of the group you chose to stand with.
Iām not aligning with nazis, but advocating against the misuse and overuse of the term (which is utterly rampant here). The problem with using such powerful labels casually is that it muddies the waters and blurs lines that should be clear but now arenāt precisely because of the misuse of the term. Itās this very misuse that is leading to misinterpretations, such as the one weāre facing here, where Iām inaccurately labeled as standing with nazis. My stance is about nuanced understanding and precision in communication, not about sympathizing with hate ideologies. I am defending thoughtful dialogue, not nazis, and itās important not to conflate the two. Since everyone is so happy with misusing the term, what are we going to call ACTUAL nazis so that we can differentiate people you disagree with and ACTUAL FUCKING NAZIS. The semantics youāre playing with are a dangerous game, and do nothing but prove my point.
Youāre aligning yourself with nazis while engaging in sophistry to pretend that neither you nor they are nazis.
All these wild mental gymnastics to explain how itās not like that, or the farcical posturing of academic exactitude and ānuanced understandingā - those are the exact same shit as nazis sending in the quiet well-spoken guy to break the ice and get a foot in the door.
Youāre doing triple overtime to figure out ways to argue compassion for cryptofascists and nazi sympathizers, while going even further out of your way to avoid having the faintest shred of empathy for people who simply want nothing to do with any of that bullshit.
You can call them whatever you want. You donāt get to demand that we call them what you want us to. You donāt get to demand that we ignore your choice to align yourself with them, to defend them, and to try and make their views sound more palatable and more reasonable than their end goals.
I completely understand that you absolutely refuse to get it and will continue to avoid getting it forevermore - but Iām going to say it for the rest of the room anyways.
Those guys are the āACTUAL FUCKING NAZISā.
They just understand that pretending that theyāre not is the only way to get through the door of spaces dominated by the reasonable mainstream theyād like to sell their ideology to. They know that the reasonable mainstream wants nothing to do with āACTUAL FUCKING NAZISā so the āACTUAL FUCKING NAZISā dress up as the people youāre currently defending and trying to make this conversation about. And anyone in that group that youāre trying to defend the nazis by pointing towards, any single person among them who doesnāt want to stand with nazis - changes where they stand so that theyāre not with the nazis anymore. Youāre staying still while trying to defend that decision.
The āACTUAL FUCKING NAZISā donāt dress up in SS Uniforms and āheilā each other in the comments sections - they pretend to be reasonable mainstream people and in order to present their views and their talking points wrapped in rhetoric that masks its nazi roots. They want to win over the mainstream, they want to convince people theyāre āon toā something, they want to exploit our willingness to engage in discourse to sell their views and advance their ideology. They are not here to engage in debate - the debate is merely a vehicle towards seizing power and then acting out an ideology of violence and hatred.
Iām not āplaying semanticsā - Iām not even engaging with yours.
We are not going to split hairs and massage academic definitions until āACTUAL FUCKING NAZISā arenāt actually nazis anymore. Either youāre a useful idiot and not qualified to try and talk down on folks about the intricate semantics of ānaziā - or youāre actually on their side.
theyāre just asking (((questions))) ugh