dumb cars will be worth their weight in gold soon
Just like how manual cars became anti theft.
That’s if you can find one for an affordable price.
I got a decent manual for about $12k back in February. And it was one of three on the lot I was there to look at all around that price: A GTI, a WRX, and a Mini.
I went with the GTI
The fun tax is real… except unllike the poster below, I was looking for a Base model Subaru and not the WRX (even though the WRX is a bucket list car)
right before the used car market exploded i got my manual Subaru for $3400 when it was worth about 10-12k because of a misfire. yeah it just had the wrong spark plugs in it :p and it’s about as dumb as they come. it has a radio, abs, and cruise control - no other driving assists or telemetry
My friend has his Kia broken into and started, but it’s a standard so they ditched it hahaha
Huh?
most car thiefs can’t drive a manual transmission
Oh right in the USA there are mostly automatic cars
Manual transmission is an anti theft device because car jackers can only drive automatic
My car got dumbed for me because they killed the 3g network it was running on
Just because you can’t use it doesn’t mean a hacker can’t. If someone discovered a vulnerability in the 3g handshake or encryption protocol, it could be an avenue for an RCE.
Especially when there are no security updates anymore. They should just rip out any possible receiver there is for mobile communication
Honestly if someone manages to figure that out I would want to know, that way I can finally use my cars remote start 😄
I wish, but most people don’t know / care about this stuff, it’s not going to really percolate into the public consciousness .
According to the dealership my car isn’t worth it’s weight grass clippings because it’s too old.
lol it’s not the dealers who will want them
You could just find and disable the wireless modems.
Cool just like trying to replace a blower motor in a modern car feel free to rip the entire dash out only to find out it has a second antenna all the way in the back underneath the spare tire also behind a tail light which somehow requires you to remove the muffler to get to…
Or just pull this fuse for the module?
brb, i have a muffler, a spare, and an entire dash to remove immediatly.
You’d probably have more luck installing a signal jammer in your car.
The best you can hope for is a rootkit and some Linux-based OS for cars to be developed so you can take full control.
FWIW there is a cottage industry for OnStar disable/delete mods for GM vehicles. It can be done, usually without breaking too much else of the car’s electronic functionality.
I’d rather poke the GSM modem with a screwdriver.
if you can find it, and all it’s backups…
Also, jammers are illegal pretty much everywhere.
i fucking KNEW we would be jailbreaking cars eventually.
and you bet they will come up with locked bootloaders.
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Happy to have my 2012 civic. One of the last gens without a telemetry unit I think.
I drive a 2014 si
That Civic is hands down the most bulletproof, refined and perfected k-series car Honda ever produced, or ever will, at this point.
If anyone reading this wants a V6, find a manual TL. Equally bulletproof, but with a J-series and room to stretch out and they are CHEAP for zero reason on the market. I don’t even understand it other than they don’t really have tuning potential, but as a commuter car, they can’t be beat for the price to comfort. They ride like clouds and have 300hp to punch with if you stomp them down an offramp.
The car will still work if you take the radio out or put a faraday cage around it, maybe that’ll become a thing in the future, but that might fuck with the paid charging infrastructure for EVs. Doesn’t impact gas.
I have a '01 Citroen and I’m gonna run it to the ground. She needs a big overhaul now, but for a 190’000Km car my baby is still pretty good.
Yeah… fuck this shit. This is part of the reason I still drive a nearly 20 year old vehicle. It has features I want, and can’t be stolen via fucking API calls. Absolute insanity.
I think Hyundai/Kia group has done unfathomable damage to their brands. Kia, despite being a budget brand, wants to be seen as a legit competitor to Toyota or at least Nissan. Their corner cutting with the immobilizers and the resulting “USB” theft shit was bad enough. Now this exploit.
They’re just terrible cars. I’ve had two…they were great until they weren’t. I literally had a screw fall out of the headliner the other day bringing it home from a nearly 1000$ exhaust patch/repair. It’s not 10 years old yet and only has 60k miles.
The other one has had the engine replaced already (under warranty thank god).
We are likely replacing both of them next year. I’m never buying a Kia again.
My Toyota with 300k+ miles has cost me $285 in repairs minus maintenance costs. I’ll likely get at least another 100k. Just placing these goalposts here…
I had an '11 optima sx, right after the refresh. Beautiful car. Returned the lease on its 3rd engine.
1st one had a spark plug fail and basically melt. Piston seized. Had power, then it didn’t, while doing 60 over a bridge.
2nd one went after an engine mount failed. Block ended up cracking.
Only consolation was that I was paying kia prices, not their over inflated sense of self pricing they try now.
I’m so sad GM killed SAAB. Only decent cars left are Volvo and Subaru. I just wish someone would mass produce a manual transmission EV.
Uh…what? How does a manual transmission work on a direct drive motor?
(And if you really want to do that, drop an electric crate engine in an 80s muscle car. I’m strongly considering it)
Don’t apply physics to a wishlist. That’s not how wishing works. I’m aware it’s not possible, but stick shift is just fun to drive.
For me it would be a 1986 SAAB 900 SPG
Of course it’s possible, electric conversion kits have been around for decades, and only work with manual transmissions. We just need the battery and charging tech applied to conversion kits. Who wants to start up an EV conversion kit company with me?
I would love to convert my car to an electric, but it’s an automatic so I’d have to spend as much as a new car to convert it.
A drop in ECU replacement and motor/battery would be great, but I doubt the auto industry or the government is going to allow the sale of third party drop in ECUs.
Actually, they do allow (in the US) in an 80’s car. A lot of the regulations around that sort of thing are very relaxed for classics.
just dont make it direct drive. boom.
oi look at the brain on this one!
behold 🧠
And lose all that instant torque. No thanks.
thatd be the case for all conversions on old cars that i know of tho
There’s just no good reason to have anything beyond the radio/nav etc in a car connected to the Internet. Remote start can be done with just the key.
You know what fuck builtin nav. Connect it to my phone and let that be it for navigation.
And same for music. What year is this 2010?
I like using the built in radio rather than my phone for music, but it doesn’t need an internet connection, just a flash drive.
I suppose I’m a weirdo for not using Spotify like most people nowadays though
A bit, I have a huge collection of CDs ripped to MP3 that are nowhere else digital streaming
I find the weird weird thing is to listen to local radio or satellite radio. I only do it for short trips where the radio turns on automatically and it’s not worth the time to put decent music from the phone.
I use my phone for music… but i have a 256GB sd card installed in it.
Plus if you use your phone for nav you can use whatever maps you like. My city is mapped pretty good on openstreetmap so that’s what I use.
I would say even those don’t need Internet. Navigation can be updated using a USB drive, and I have a phone for audio so I just need bluetooth.
The only network connection I want in my car is to notify emergency services if the airbags go off.
Things like live traffic require a connection though, and Google maps I think does the routing calcs off the device. Most people will use their phone for all that, but the use case is there.
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I think the point is that there isn’t a good enough reason to put internet in a car that negates the risk of it.
It is like adding lead to food. It’s a cheap sweetener with no calories. You can argue that cheap sweeteners aren’t important to you, but I don’t think you can argue that it isn’t a good reason. It just isn’t a good enough reason to negate the risk.
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if its not a good enough reason, that’s literally not a good reason
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“Not good enough” = not important to you
you have misunderstood something.
not good enough means the downsides highly, severely outweigh the upsides. It’s not that “I wouldn’t use it and then you shouldn’t have it either”, it’s that there are very good reasons to not have these in my car, or anyone’s really, in a way where they cannot be removed!
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once again, no, they don’t
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frankly they aren’t good reasons.
the first bunch provides info and abilities that are only relevant when you are in the car. this is like wanting to know your house’s temperature when you are in the store, or on vacation. what the fuck you do with that information?
the remaining about the alarm and it being stolen, what are you going to do with this? go after them with your 4th car and a shotgun? let’s hope they did not disconnect the batteries…
if you absolutely cannot live without these, you should by an extension that does this, instead of forcing this shit on everyone
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I don’t know what “the first bunch” is so I can’t answer that but these are all definitely use while away from the car.
sorry, I wanted to mean these:
My car reminds me if the doors are unlocked or left open. I can adjust the charging speed at any time. I can turn on the HVAC and seat heaters before I leave. I can see my current state of charge. I can see exactly what is happening when my alarm goes off
_
Is that a real question? You’re going to figure out why your alarm is going off, and if it’s stolen you’re going to give it to the police so they can recover it…
yes, why do you need a moving, online accessible high quality surveillance camera system is a real question.
I don’t think you need this to report it to the police, the loud alarm and policeman on the road searching for the stolen car has worked well for decades. or at least I haven’t heard of car theft in… a pretty long time, so long that I don’t even remember.I dunno what an “extension” is but pretty sure it doesn’t exist or can’t do these things.
oh it would exist if laws would force car makers to not place unremovable tracking systems in the car by default.
but I that being said, think these tings do exist, in the form of little devices thay you can connect to your car’s OBD port, and they have a GPS receiver and a SIM slot to do it’s job.
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…yes, that’s what we’re discussing…
obviously not. what we are discussing is optional and voluntary, because it is removable
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You can argue that those are not important to you, personally but I don’t think you can argue that they aren’t good reasons.
These sound like “value-add module purchased at or after time of sale” reasons.
In short, they’re features and not requirements.
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That’s a very subjective take. My friends and family that live in hot climates love the ability to remotely turn on and pre-cool their vehicles. I appreciate being able to check if I remembered to lock the doors.
Both of those functions have been available via key fob for at least a decade, no internet required. Though yes the range on that can be limited.
Thats precisely what I’m referring to- these things being possible when you’re inside of a store, restaurant, or an extreme case like you parked at the airport for a trip.
Some of us still remember Wise Guys and want that range! ;-)
And by using that internet connected feature you’re 100% handing out your driving info to your car manufacturer, who in turn will sell it to LexisNexis, who in turn will sell it to insurance companies, who in turn will jack up your insurance prices.
Sure, that sucks. But I’m not saying there are zero downsides, I’m specifically countering the argument that there are “no good reasons” with my personal good reasons.
it really depends whether that counts as a good reason. for us the downsides highly outweigh the upsides.
and yes, I know what it’s like to sit in a hot car when I just got back to it on the hot summer day. but I can really wait 2 minutes outside the car when it’s that badMan, I’ll never understand this “car is too hot for me to sit in” to be honest. Lmao. Sounds to me like people are too spoiled and this is something kids say. Come one, you really think of this is as an issue? I don’t even have an ac in my car. It broke over 4 years ago and I never fixed it. But for each their own I guess.
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LOL. I don’t live in a hot climate? How about the middle east? Does that sound hot enough? I grew up living in a tent. A literal tent until I was about 20, then my father decided to build a house. Then that house had no power until 2008. And our weather there can get to 130+ easily. So, imagine that heat. Imagine how getting into a car would feel. Here is a photo I took of a thermometer I took in June of 2009. It was around 1 pm. I was on a military base that day. It won’t kill you, you will be fine. Open your windows and wait outside a little so you don’t melt. lol
As I said in my comment, that can be done with the key, no Internet connection needed.
As for the lock thing, I just need to look if my mirrors are folded in or not.
The fob won’t work if you’re deep inside a store, will it? Same for checking the mirrors.
A) you can survive without precooling or set it to start before getting deep into the store.
B)if you want that feature fine, but leave it off everyone else’s car! No cell connections should be installed by default like this. It’s a walking cve list waiting to happen.
😭
Let the fucking hacking begin. Fuck these assholes. They are milking people out of their last penny, and on top of that they’re selling people’s driving data to data brokers who sell it to insurance companies that jack up prices.
Let the fucking hacking begin. Fuck these assholes.
Then you’re gonna hack the company, not the endusers’ cars.
Right?
Right?
The ones on the dealership lot
I hope so? Lol
I’ve noticed a lot of issues showing up for the Kia and Hyundai cars security wise. I wonder if they’re having issues because there’s more focus on those cars or if their security is really that bad.
The Kia/Hyundai “challenge” where people were stealing their cars with a USB cord is because they opted not to include an immobilizer in US models for a decade. Every other car brand had them as standard. Kia even had them as standard in non US cars, but because the USA stupidly does not have a law about it, they opted to drastically reduce car security to save a few dollars per car.
This has made them prime targets, as people know they make bad security choices whenever they can save a buck.
So a bit of both, I expect.
I’m still amazed that immobilizers aren’t a legal requirement in the USA, and that Kia would remove them from US models just to save a small amount of money.
Both probably. I’m sure a lot of cars have problems like this, but they just haven’t been found and there are already known vulnerabilities to focus on.
Don’t look into South Korean web security. If their cars are as badly designed as their websites… Yikes
They went balls deep with the devil’s spawn called nprotect.
FYI: From the article: “These vulnerabilities have since been fixed, this tool was never released, and the Kia team has validated this was never exploited maliciously.”
Nice writeup
I know the majority of you hate Tesla, but security is something they do take more seriously. They even take part in pwn2own to help find vulnerabilities.
All auto manufacturers should be taking part in that.
Nothing like winning a car to get people to try and break into it publicly.
Edit: Also details on the 2025 event in January just recently announced. https://www.zerodayinitiative.com/blog/2024/9/23/announcing-pwn2own-automotive-for-2025
I have my money on Tesla being the first cloud-connected car (that phrase shouldn’t exist) to be hacked and push a malicious firmware that will cause all cars to simultaneously activate self driving and to pull a hard left at a specific time (time bomb).
You should watch - Leave the World Behind
You might be right, but I don’t think it’ll be because their cars are the easiest to hack, it’ll be because they have the most cars out there capable of doing this and it’d be more impactful attack if successful.
(edit: Also they’d be able to exert the most control on their cars with the software/sensors available today at scale. E.g they could more easily have the car drive around until it finds a pedestrian to hit)
(edit: Further, you can make the most changes to a Tesla as they have one of the more (or probably most) advanced OTA update capabilities)
They are definitely a prime target.
I also love how Tesla engineers pay attention to small quality-of-life things like racing games to play while you wait for charge using the wheel as controller, using the built-in 360 camera as dashcam and parking monitor.
