What’s actually going to kill LLMs is when the sweet VC money runs out and the vendors have to start charging what it actually costs to run.
You can run it on your own machine. It won’t work on a phone right now, but I guarantee chip manufacturers are working on a custom SOC right now which will be able to run a rudimentary local model.
Both apple and Google have integrated machine learning optimisations, specifically for running ML algorithms, into their processors.
As long as you have something optimized to run the model, it will work fairly well.
They don’t want to have independent ML chips, they want it baked into every processor.
Jokes on them because I can’t afford their overpriced phones 😎
That’s fine, Qualcomm has followed suit, and Samsung is doing the same.
I’m sure Intel and AMD are not far behind. They may already be doing this, I just haven’t kept up on the latest information from them.
Eventually all processors will have it, whether you want it or not.
I’m not saying this is a good thing, I’m saying this as a matter of fact.
You can already run 3B llms on cheap phones using MLCChat, it’s just hella slow
It will run on a phone right now. Llama3.2 on Pixel 8
Only drawback is that it requires a lot of RAM so I needed to close all other applications, but that could be fixed easily on the next phone. Other than that it was quite fast and only took ~3gb of storage!
This isn’t the case. Midjourney doesn’t receive any VC money since it has no investors and this ignores genned imagery made locally off your own rig.
yeah but that’s pretty alright all told, the tech bros do not have the basic competency to do that and they can’t sell it to dollar-sign-eyed ceos
AI can make porn. It’s not going anywhere.
He who holds the porn holds the power
Well, he holds something, anyway.
Watching cryptobros lose their life savings was my kink.
hey, I still use XMR to buy my hrt
Yeah, buying medication is literally the only good use-case for cryptocurrencies, but it still is a valid and important use-case that saves lives!
there are some other use cases tho, just imagine the bank would give your payment info to insurance companies for example (which they could), the only way to pay would be cash and crypto
just imagine the bank would give your payment info to insurance companies for example
That would be a very severe violation of the GDPR and whatever bank-privacy laws are in place. On top of that, which insurance would even be affected by it? I don’t own a car, health insurance comes at non-discriminatory rates here and why would my liability insurance be affected by what I buy? Like: It’s genuinely a non-issue here.
And even if, cash is still a much better option for everything.
I more meant to say what if, and in case that ever happens we should keep crypto around, also cash is just impractical for ordering something online for example
NFTs and crypto were dubious as to the value they provided
LLMs on the other hand provide very tangible, immediate value to a large number of people
Also they allow companies to save a ton of money on support at the expense of the user experience so of course it’s here to stay
It’s still overhyped and being shoved into every app, service and system that exists whether it adds value or not.
Its definitely not going away, there’s some real value to LLM/AI (much more than crypto anyway) but make no mistake there’s going to be a significant correction where the bubble bursts and AI becomes right sized.
When the microwave first hit mass adoption there was an enormous amount of microwave meals, cookbooks, and recipes that tried to use it for everything imaginable. Eventually the hype settled down and now for most people the microwave isn’t the primary or at least sole means of cooking.
But the microwave is still a great way to make a quick baked potato.
I’d argue that people got way too excited about what NFTs offer. Being able to own/transfer a digital item with a standardized interface is interesting technically (and has real value, for example ENS names), but holy hell did people go all Beanie Baby on them…
That’s not arguing with my point though, people definitely did get excited about perceived value, but it didn’t really benefit most people in any way because it was only a promise, not an actual thing
LLMs and other generational AI produce something that immediately has value
If I ask chatgpt to write me a python function I now have a python function I can use, if I ask it to explain something and then attempt to apply that knowledge I’ve learned something useful
If I bought an nft the value of that nft would only be what people decide it is worth
Oh, sorry, I wasn’t intending to argue against your main point. For the most part, I agree with you.
What I don’t agree with is that the value of NFTs (as a technology) is dubious. Instead I think it’s overstated.
In the same vein as “LLMs can write Python”, NFTs provide ownership information. Regardless of what some asshat pays for a picture of a monkey, the underlying technology still has merit.
True I suppose, but I don’t really gain anything from owning that information other than being able to say I own it
A copyright or a patent does the same job, but is actually enforceable
I guess you could use an nft to prove something is a copy but a hash should do pretty much the same thing (also they could change one pixel to invalidate the nft if I understand correctly)
I’m a furry, so I’m going to use an example that is familiar to me. Apologies if you dislike furries. Also note that, as far as I am aware, the general opinion of furries is strongly against blockchain.
So, some setup:
- I have a character. I pay artists to draw art of my character.
- There is a… subgroup among furries that do not get art of their own, and instead use other people’s art as avatars/profile pictures for erotic roleplay.
- I would prefer that I am the only one using my character’s art as profile pictures (erotically or not.)
- Some furries sell their characters and associated art to other furries.
Here’s how NFTs would actually be useful:
Whenever an artist draws some art, they mint an NFT and transfer it to the character’s owner. Now that owner can prove to whatever roleplay websites that they officially have permission from the artist. The roleplay websites would need to allowlist artists for this to be effective.
You could (partially) solve this with PGP or some other non-blockchain cryptographic tool. What NFTs offer above this is that there is only one current owner. That makes it possible to safely transfer ownership of a character to someone new.
No need to apologise for what you enjoy it’s just a hobby
Furry ERP is the thing that weirds people out and doesn’t sound like you’re into that
My question here though is has anyone actually managed to achieve that using the nft as proof? I feel like you’d struggle to do that even with regular copyright which is actually recognised legally.
I’m pretty sure nfts have no weight legally and proving they’re using your avatar to people in general is only going to get you made fun of for having an nft in the first place
The problem with copyright is that it cannot be automatically enforced. Twitter did do a trial with nft avatars, but yeah, people just got made fun of. It’s possible to tie a copyright license to an NFT if you want, but copyright and NFTs serve different goals IMO.
Anyways, I don’t want to take up more of your time. Thanks for a very reasonable discussion! It doesn’t happen often.
as dubious as the value they provided
Go look at bitcoin and tell me the value dubious. Here I’ll help: https://finance.yahoo.com/chart/BTC-USD click the 5y view at the bottom.
Yes crypto is full of scam coins, but scammers permeate everything, should we give up on email too for the same reasons? Saying crypto in general is a scam is just ignorant.
XMR as well provides key privacy protections, etc.
When I say dubious I mean it’s not tangible, there’s no guarantee of its value.
If I have chatgpt write me a block of code that block of code is inherently and immediately useful to me
If I buy a bitcoin it will probably eventually increase in value but I can’t do anything with it, and there’s no guarantee it won’t be immediately worthless the next day
I guess by the same logic you could say the code might be immediately worthless if there’s a solar flare that wipes out all technology on earth but you get my point I’m sure
lol no
they’re right, it’s just not a good thing
They are not, managers only think it is saving them money. All the same current llms are a grift that have no plausible value statement outside of scam markets. Even then the price of their use is both massively subsidized and scales at best exponentially with performance. This cannot last forever.
it obviously won’t last forever, the same as fossil fuels or any resource on this planet. that doesn’t mean they won’t abuse it till the last possible moment.
i dont think you are grasping the absolute scale of cash injection necessary to make llm even appear vaguely tenable as a product.
I have to say, the technology behind cryptocurrencies is brilliant, but unfortunately, it got misused and got ironically centralised.
NFTs are stupid.
Now with hype train dying, we could see some real use of AI.You see, no one actually wants a digital currency. There have been several (nano was my favorite) that functioned especially well as a currency, because it used very little compute power to perform or verify transactions.
But a currency is stable. Which means you don’t magically make money by holding or trading it. So it doesn’t get attention, and therefore doesn’t get widely adopted.
Everyone likes Bitcoin because it’s speculative digital gold.
It’d be nice to have a singular system for payment around the world. I work on e-commerce sites that take payment in many different countries, and some of those payment providers are better designed than others.
Name one stable currency. All currency fluctuates (Forex trading). But yes, crypto is very volatile comparatively
How many more decades do you think until crypto stabilizes?
I don’t think investors in crypto want it to lose volatility. But again, all currencies are subjected to volatility. No currency is perfectly stable. Hence, derivatives.
That was my point, in essence. Crypto fails as currency because the people in that market don’t want it to be less volatile, making it bad for typical currency uses.
While yes, the relative values of currency fluctuate over time and in relation to one another, it’s orders of magnitude less and driven by far more predictable and based on actual real world factors. Instead of Fomo, whims, market whales, and indecipherable white papers.
nano was my favorite
Hello, fellow Nanite!
I recently tried Nano-GPT and had a very good experience (see https://feddit.org/post/3081522/2172497), so there is at least some real-world usage – it’s cool and kind of impressive technology, though spam during certain periods was always an issue and I don’t know how resilient the network is currently.
There are plenty of people who want a digital equivalent to cash from a privacy perspective.
Crypto is the exact opposite of private. You literally share all your transactions with everyone.
I really enjoy reading about the investigations that follow any big crypto heist, where they track the stolen money through various exchanges etc. The Swindled podcast just did one about a pretty poor attempt to launder crypto (see Razzlekhan) and Darknet diaries did one on the much more competent (suspected North Korean) heist of eth from Axie Infinity and their various laundering efforts including through Tornado cash. It’s surprisingly transparent in a lot of ways. It seems like stealing the money is often the comparatively easy part, and getting their huge sums out of crypto and into something they can use (while thousands watch the money like hawks) is much harder.
getting their huge sums out of crypto and into something they can use (while thousands watch the money like hawks) is much harder
That, my friends, is what NFT are is perfect at.
“Oh, what, tax authority? No, I didn’t steal this money. I earned it legit by selling my newly-minted monkey NFT to some sucker for 100 ETH.”
That gets your money into crypto, not out of it.
The full scheme works like this—
- Acquire dirty (criminally-obtained) cash or dirty crypto. You can convert dirty cash into crypto easily by buying peer-to-peer. Deposit this into Wallet A.
- Using a different wallet, Wallet B, mint an NFT and put it up for auction. You might consider paying a small sum of money to have it “sponsored” by a B-tier celebrity to make it seem more legitimate.
- Using the Wallet A, outbid everyone else and buy the NFT. Pay using the dirty crypto.
- Dirty crypto is transferred to Wallet B.
- Repeat this process as many times as desired.
- In the end, sell the crypto legitimately on a cryptocurrency exchange. Declare the crypto as income and pay tax as appropriate.
- If questioned by the authorities, you claim that you mint NFTs and that they were sold genuinely at public auction, purchased by an anonymous buyer.
AI is useful, you just have to use it right. Most “titans of business” think it’s a replacement for humans. It’s infinitely obnoxious correcting them in a business setting.
NFTs of art was really not supposed to be anything more than a proof of concept. I think the original purpose of NFTs was to be able to have an NFT representing title to land or something that you could then barter or sell on the blockchain.
NFTs were created in a code jam and had no intents to become title transfer tools.
It was and always be limited by the amount of data the NFT can contain. They went with URLs because they are small enough to fit. An actual land deed title document? Too big to fit into an NFT. Simply not enough bytes to go around.
This was the strict limitation from the very beginning. The only thing an NFT actually verifies “ownership” of is a URL.
Nfts legitimately confuse me.
“Why can’t you put the whole image in an nft?”
“It’s too big”
“Why is it too big?”
“It’d take too long to generate.”
“Okay, but why?”
“Because nfts can’t hold that much information.”
“Okay, but why?”
“Because it’d take too long to generate.”
“Okay, but why would it take too long to generate???”
“Fuck you, stop wasting my time.”
“Oooookay. I really don’t understand but okay, fuck you too I guess.”
Does anyone know why nfts are so small? Everything I’ve read says that they’re fucking tiny, but nothing explains why they can’t be larger, why being larger would be too slow, and so on. They honestly seem like a decent answer to the digital ownership problem of “I want to resell this game like I could 20yrs ago but I can’t because it didn’t come on a disc”, however I get sent in a circle whenever I try to figure out what makes nfts so unwieldy and impractical.
(Not that I think anyone should be able to own a digital good; I pay for digital things because I want to support people, not because I think digital ownership is a legitimate concept. Imo, because digital things can be copied as many times as you want, you can’t truly own a digital item, and nor should anyone be allowed to try and revoke said item unless said item is illegal for other reasons. However… As long as we live in a capitalist society hell-bent on applying the concept of ownership to a system that’s only limited by your hardware, I think people should have the ability to actually “own” their digital goods (in a traditional sense), which includes things like the right to not have a company take them away whenever it feels like it and the ability to sell digital goods like an IRL market.)
Does anyone know why nfts are so small?
Because storage space on “The Blockchain” is very expensive.
The blockchain is a complete list of all transaction made with a cryptocurrency. You have heard of miners. What they do is collect transactions and append them to the blockchain. Every miner must have a complete copy of the whole chain. So whenever a new NFT is created, lots of copies have to be stored and kept forever. It’s just not a good solution from an engineering standpoint. But for the popular currencies, that’s the smaller problem.
Every miner wants a fee for their services. That fee depends on the value of the cryptocurrency. There is no relation to the actual storage cost.
Besides, crypto does not offer any kind of DRM. If it did, the copyright industry would be all over it. Anyone can download anything on the blockchain.
The reason you can’t resell games is, because the publishers don’t allow it. For example, Steam has a marketplace. It would be no technical problem to make games transferrable between users. The rights-owners don’t want that.
Ah, okay. That makes sense. I missed the, “the whole chain has to be on everyone’s PCs” part. I figured it was more like BitTorrent where you don’t actually have to have the whole thing, it works as long as everyone has all the parts to put the whole thing together (but the parts can be distributed across a bunch of PCs).
While the NFT can’t contain the entire title document, it can contain the hash of the title document, and then the title document is simply recorded elsewhere on-chain.
Unfortunately it only is useful in proving title when normal processes have failed, and in the places with title proven by a line of titles stretching arbitrarily far back, it’s only as good as the proof that got it in the block chain
It’s better in places like Australia where title is a record on a government database and block chain would protect against destruction of government records (eg from war or revolution), but there it would probably only be useful if something like the old government regained power (the Nazis had no intention of returning stuff to Jews)
But in places like Australia you wouldn’t want to add another step to the users, perhaps it could be a land titles department job
In places with title via history of title I don’t think it could defeat a result from a title search, so maybe it’d be next to useless unless it was backed by a court order or some other authoritative full stop
I agree with this. A title to land ownership is in itself just a piece of paper, it’s not the land you’re owning. It’s effectively serving the same purpose as the hash idea you’re suggesting
None of those things are dead though?
NFTs are kinda dead
No, they really aren’t. What died down was scam artists selling jpegs for ridiculous money. Unfortunately. 99.999% of the human population thinks that NFTs are literally just jpegs thanks to the scam bros and retards that bought them. Real functional NFTs are definitely still being used.
Can you name a good use case for NFTs?
Maybe to transfer ownership of software, but other than that…. 🤷♂️
Tax fraud/evasion was the main use case of NFTs that I saw but that’s exclusive to the world of high art and private collections – the actual NFTs, like bespoke paintings from famous painters.
So you know; even when not designed as a scam from the onset, it’s about scamming money from others anyway.
So you named one already. Anyhow, no, I fucking hate that ancient Internet game where people try to force you to do their work for them. Go to Google and type in the information you seek.
It’s called a conversation dude. If ou don’t want to back up your point, just say so.
I’m not going to, correct. And no, this is not a conversation. This is a timeless bullshit scenario where you just keep making me bring source after source for new goalposts. I’ve no interest. It’s not like I have any stake in the NFT game, but it’s clearly not “dead”.
The internet tells me that NFTs are “decentralized” decoration around centralized ownership. A worthless scam.
“Transferring ownership” of a collection of information which costs no money or labor to infinitely reproduce is the opposite of a good use case, it’s inherently worthless
And? Where did I say they were the greatest most useful things ever? I said they weren’t dead and that jpegs aren’t their only use case.
go mention crypto or NFTs to a person on the street and i guarantee you will be laughed at immediately
Why would I? I have no stake in those games at all. I also don’t have any stake in religion or sports teams, all of these things I can still tell you are not “dead” without me giving a shit about them personally.
But also, yeah, I probably would. Why should that matter? Common people are stupid as fuck generally speaking so why should it matter to someone if they don’t understand whatever they care about? They might laugh if I brought up Fallout and call me a dork, they might laugh if I say I work at a grocery store and say I’m a loser. I couldn’t give less of a shit what the man-on-the-street thinks about me.
Until it springs back up
I hope this is the case, but I don’t really think so. I got a call Thursday from a friend and he told me he and his whole department were losing their jobs. He was pretty upset about it. Apparently management decided they could be replaced with AI.
He and his team manage a medium sized in-house developed management application. It’s a combination of stock management, product management and sales tools. Because the products their company sells are pretty unique, they never found a good off the shelf application to do everything they wanted. So they developed their own and connected it to the off the shelf applications they have for ERP and CRM. Pretty slick and his team and him are praised across the company.
Apparently the IT manager had gotten a very impressive demo for Microsoft Power BI with AI integration. Using AI tools to realtime develop an application. He was so impressed he decided they were going to fire the in-house team and have an external company use the AI to develop a replacement tool. The external company said they could use very cheap people as the AI would do basically all the work. And it would be done before the notice on the current team ran out (2 months).
He called me kinda in shock about the whole thing. Like that’s not realistic right? That’s not something Power BI can do? With or without AI? And even with AI it can’t do that on such short notice? I told him he was right, that’s not how anything works and the IT manager got duped. Either way, they are out on their ass. Now they are very skilled people and will probably find new jobs right away, but it still sucks ass. AI sucks!
I recall the AI insights feature years ago being a mess, flagged patterns across dimensions, unrelated trends etc, useless noise to slog through, if not outright dangerous if people just assume everything is actionable, maybe it’s gotten better but it’s going to rely heavily on data quality, good governance, the model itself.
Straight up, this is not a good use case for Power BI, tabular is really good at aggregates and analytics, I’d not use it for management like this, especially if there’s already an existing application, as an enhancement though yeah go ahead, but not a full on replacement.
I’d be willing to bet this won’t be done in 2 months and certainly not to budget, to do properly you need to understand business context, data model etc. I’m guaranteeing this is going to be sludge with half-baked power apps, people will complain about the change. Shit the change management for end users will take more than 2 months, took us years to get people to switch off of a barely maintained shift summary report to a Power BI version and that actually was a good use of the tool.
This project gives me nightmares and I’m not even working on it.
You’re extrapolating from one data point, nfts are crypto
None of those things are dead in any way, maybe nfts at best but btc has been back towards all time highs a few times just this year. Some scam, right?
Same with AI, so powerful but everyone just says AI art bad and that’s that as is that’s all AI can do, make art and steal low skill jobs away 🙄
What a lame unoriginal post, yeah AI hype is dying down and interest is normalizing, must be dYiNg!!! Give me a break.
Crypto was stupid from the beginning, NFTs are even more stupid. And people who knew about the tech told everyone so, before the idiots bought the shit to get rugpulled.
Ai art is bad for artists, but not inherently bad bs.
AI art is antithetical to art. Art requires artistic intent.
It could have some limited application for very early exploration in commercial art, or perhaps as very limited tools used in existing art software, but generative art is inherently pointless and you need artists to be able to do incremental iterations properly, which is required for real work, which isn’t supported yet. I’ll sure it’ll get better and more convincing, but it’s still inherently pointless to use AI for art, since the is supposed to be human expression.
Until we have autonomous agents, AI art is human expression
AI art is human expression in the same way that the Gaussian blur tool is. It’s a bunch of math spitting out a pattern based on specific inputs.
All while currently being as ethical as the fast fashion industry producing scam versions of high fashion products.
It has the potential to be very useful in certain applications, but right now, all it really does is create Content to be consumed. Kinda like elevator music or that horrible Corporate Memphis style that has invaded every piece of corporate media/advertising in recent years. Soulless and without meaning. It’s pretty high quality slop, all things considered, but slop nonetheless.
I think it’s safe to say you don’t know what you’re talking about
I strongly disagree. 99% of the work is being done by an algorithm. It’s like if we had autonomous driving and you said you were actively driving all day, because you told the car where to go, and then took a nap in the car until you had arrived.
Photography is widely recognized as an art form, even though the scene exists independently and the photographer “simply” frames and captures the shot.
A better driving analogy might be Tesla’s current level of self-driving, where you have to keep a hand on the wheel and eyes on the road the whole time, and remain in charge of all the critical decisions. When someone arrives in a Tesla and says, “I drove here,” no one goes “ackchyually…” Even if we follow your analogy, it’s the individual’s idea to reach that destination- often a novel place no one has even been to before.
Creative individuals curate unique datasets, which can take countless hours of manual work, to create LoRAs. They often draw from their own photographs, drawings, paintings, etc., and then coordinate prompts and parameters to blend their custom LoRAs with other creators’ LoRAs/models/checkpoints to craft something unique. These creations exist only because they had the vision and put in the effort to realize it. The process can be even more involved with tools like ControlNet, where artists might even sketch an outline of the scene by hand.
A quick selfie might not be considered art, but intentional expression through creatively capturing a scene is (photography). Similarly, a quick generation via Copilot for a meme might not qualify as art, but intentional expression through creative generation certainly does.
I disagree with your analogy, as I find it overstates the active involvement of the driver (prompter) during the drive (actual image generation).
Preparation is it’s own process, whether you’re curating art you made yourself/stole from non-consensual artists, or have been finding references as an artist. Different skillset. They help the process of making the final image, but they are not a direct part of that process.
And let’s not kid ourselves about theses datasets. There’s no accountability so there’s no way to ensure that any dataset you’re getting from other people aren’t comprised of, at least partially, stolen art.
ControlNet let’s you add visuals to your prompt for greater control, but you’re still generating the image externally, and leaving the vast majority of the decision making to the model you’re using. Even if someone is happy with the result they get from a generative model and find it visually pleasant, that doesn’t make it art. The model is doing the work and the model cannot have artistic intent, so it cannot make art. It can make images and people can enjoy those, but those images aren’t something new.
They are amalgamations of most basic common denominator of existing things. It is much more like a really advanced collage that is great at hiding the seams.
Amazingly, everything you’ve written is wrong, but I really don’t care enough to further correct you
It’s a tool. Artists will learn how to use it to create art.
Right now it is not a tool. Right now it is an attempt at replacing artists.
It could be implemented in existing softwares in parts to make it a useful tool. Like a tool that could easily recolour parts of a fully rendered illustration, while still respecting the artistic intent with the form and lightning.
But right now it just spits out the blandest stuff, based on what it has identified as the most common denominators in art.
Right now it is not a tool. Right now it is an attempt at replacing artists.
A lot companies are using the AIl to attempt to replace artists, that does not mean that some artists are not using it like a tool already.
I know quite a few artists that are already training their own artwork into custom data sets.
People that say that AI could be used as a tool to help artists clearly as never pickup a pencil to draw. The thing that makes an artists voice, that makes that art theirs are the decisions they make while making their art.
When you are drawing something, you are constantly making small micro-decisions with every stroke of your pencil, and those decision and how you make them is what makes art so beautiful, as no two artists make those decision the same way and each artist as a certain consistency in those decisions that evolves with them as a person. As such, art is so much more than a pretty picture, it is a reflection of the person who made it. Those decisions are also the fun part of making art.
AI art doesn’t let you make any decisions: you type the prompt and out comes an image. An image made of an weighted average of human made images with a similar description. You have no say in the micro-decision the machine makes, you have no say on where exactly the pencil strokes go. Therefore this machine is useless for artists. You might say “Just edit the image!”, but that doesn’t help either, as editing the image still doesn’t give you that micro-level of decision making. Also, editing a flat image with just one layer is just as useful as any other image form any search engine image search result. Unlike text, which can be easily edited to be exactly what you want.
I know their might be some wait to integrate machine learning into art, but right now the tools available don’t do that.
People who say that AI can’t be used as a tool to help artists clearly have never tried using AI as a tool. Everything you’ve written here is untrue.
Artists can manually curate unique datasets to create LoRAs. They can draw from their own photographs, drawings, paintings, etc., and then coordinate prompts and parameters to blend their custom LoRAs with other creators’ LoRAs/models/checkpoints to craft something unique. The process can be even more involved with tools like ControlNet, where artists can sketch an outline of the scene by hand. I.e., you can have precise control over where the pencil strokes go.
The tools available right now do that
I’ve used it and continue to research it.
You’re wrong. You can’t have the same level of control as the person above describes. Even if you train the model on your own work, it will still be the one generating every “stroke” of the pencil. If trained for it, it will do it based on how you must often do so, but you can’t clearly control it. You can’t control granular details of the process of creating the image. It’s all broad strokes. I don’t know what your level of experience with art is, but so much of what makes art is tied up in the process of having to think through every little addition you make to an image. And by little addition I don’t mean “let’s add a person here” but “let’s do these 200 individual strokes that make up that person”. The involvement in the process is the point, and when an image is generated for you, you remove so much of the involvement and granular decision making, that the actual point is lost.
It’s like cooking with premade, pre-prepared ingredients. You can pick the dish and put it together with the stuff you buy, but you can’t control the whole process, because you’ve given up that for the sake of speed and convenience, and the dish will be different for it.
With ControlNet, you can control that very finely though. It partially combines computer graphics into the mix which is definitely not easy to get into.
But it’s different from drawing, that is for sure. Different decisions with different outcomes and different possibilities. But you see similar differences with every form of art. You don’t make 200 strokes for a photograph, or for a cut out collage, or algorithmic art, or sculpting. But you do make different decisions that are similar in nature. They shape the end product, and in a way no other person would do exactly the same. You still have to be involved in every step of the process, even if some steps are no longer done by yourself, they are replaced by other decisions.
Again, this is assuming they aren’t just clicking generate and calling it good to go, but if someone is using ControlNet they should be well above that, since the quality of blank generations is often not the best and demands refinement to anyone with an creative outlook.
This is why we shouldn’t confuse AI art, AI assisted art, and other forms of visual art, even if they all end up making an image as the end result. Something can be impressive when drawn, but mediocre if made with AI. Just like painting a scene isn’t the same as taking a photograph of that same scene, even if they end up being visually similar. Everything exists in context.
And yes, you are giving up some creative control for sake of convenience. But the question is how much. A painter that hand crafts their brushes will make a different painting had they used a pre-made brush. But we can agree I think that the creative control they lost by doing so is negligible. Artists generally lean on what they have produced before as references too. 3D sculptors can start with a cube too, but if they’re going to be making a person they will start with a mesh of a human figure, male or female depending on what they want. There is no shame in taking shortcuts in steps where it’s possible, even if it’s commendable if you don’t.
Art takes long and is expensive to produce, it would be unsustainable in this modern day to do everything from scratch every time. And as long as you focus on the parts where your decisions make the artistic intent happen, you can still make something unique and valuable in it’s own right.
That’s a cool visualisation of what kind of visual input you can feed into the process with ControlNet.
And it really makes it clear that what AI images is good for if communicating a general idea. I think comparing AI generated or Assisted images or videos to photography is probably the closest analogous medium we have, but I think AI images are stort if in-between that and more classical art. You have more control over the more technical aspects of the image, as you can alter those things with big strokes, but you’ve given up too much control to really infused it with artistic intent. Even when photography, where you are generally limited by reality, you can better infused artistic intent into the picture, because you carefully examine what makes that object of the picture unique. Even if you try to direct AI models, it limit their scope they will always add whether the most average expression of what they’re adding, because that what it looks for in the training; the commonalities/averages of whatever it was trained on.
Even ControlNet is just a way to claw back a little more control over the process. I wouldn’t actually call the examples I’ve seen of ControlNet to be examples of fine control. I’m struggling to find a way to clearly communicate it, but it’s like the difference between 3D art that is trying to look like 2D, and actual 2D. There’s always something lost in the translation.
Most artistic disciplines are their own language, and I just don’t think we have a way to communicate that language without actually doing the art, and art requires artistic intent, which I don’t think is possible with the current AI tools. Maybe it will be at some point, but artistic intent and control over the process are so interconnected that the balance becomes very difficult.
I never said that art will necessarily come from AI in its current form but it’s true that it’s what I had in mind. You basically expressed something very similar to what I meant in your last paragraph.
And yes I do love pencil drawing :)
But I’m more thinking about conceptual artists with decades of work behind them that I can imagine will create art using these AI tools that will transcend what the average Joe/Jane is producing with these tools right now. To produce something that will shock, move us, make us think.
There are so many different facets to art.
Hi, person here who’s drawn extensively with pencil as a kid but then slowed down. AI has reignited my passion for art, because unlike pencil or even digital drawing, you can iterate much more quickly, which allows me to do so while working a demanding job and having a life besides it. You are severely underestimating the amount of micro-decisions that go into AI art, and more importantly AI assisted art. If you’ll allow me, let me explain.
Lets break it down into levels of effort and creative input, I like to refer back to photography since it has some comparison:
- Empty canvas prompting.
spoiler
To me that is essentially the equivalent of taking a selfie or a random shot. On the scale of effort this is none to very little. But a prompt can be unique if you put an extreme amount of effort into specifying the exact details, just like a random shot can in fact be a very informed random shot.
You can put a rather massive amount of tokens into your prompt that all further specify this. At this point you can reasonably say you imagined at least the general look of the image before it was created. But you can’t say you had any part in actually drawing it or significantly determined how it was drawn. It’s basically impossible to get any kind of copyright protection over this unless you can back up your prompt very well, and only then would you get protection over your prompt, not what the AI drew.
- Image to image
spoiler
You can feed an image into the AI, you add noise to the image, and let the AI try to remove that noise (After all, this is the exact same as it does on an empty canvas, but that is completely random noise). This means that a large part of your original image specifies how the AI will further try to denoise the image. As such, you are guiding a large part of how the AI moves forward. No other artist would likely use the same input image as you, so human decision making plays a bigger part here.
To me this is the equivalent of choosing a location you want to take a picture, and then scouting several locations to see which one works best. That’s the micro-decisions sneaking in. You are giving the AI an existing image, either created by yourself, or from previous iterations.
At this point, you are essentially evolving an image. You are selecting attributes and design choices in the image you want to enhance and amplify. These are decisions the artists makes based on their view of how the final image will look like. Every iteration adds more decisions that no other artist would take the same way.
- Collaboration.
spoiler
The point where AI starts becoming a tool. You don’t start with point 1, or at least only use point 1 for brainstorming. You imagine the image beforehand, just like you would do with pencil. You can develop the image as much as you would like before going to the AI. You are making the exact micro decisions you are with drawing by hand, since it’s essentially the same up to this point. A photographer at this point would work out every fine detail before snapping the picture.
Except for the fact that you know you are going to be using an AI, so certain aspects need more or less refinement to properly be enhanced by the use of AI. Just like you don’t start the same if you’re going to make a painting, or a silhouette, or any other kind of technique. At some point, you return the image to the AI and mostly perform step #2, perhaps returning to brainstorming with step #1 if you want to add or remove from your existing design.
- AI truly as a tool.
spoiler
Now to make something actually with #3, you start doing this process in iterations. Constantly going back and forth between photoshop and the AI, sometimes you spend days in photoshop, other times you spend days refining a part of the image with AI. There are also additional techniques like ControlNet, LoRAs, different models, different services, that can drastically enhance how well you get to what you want. A photographer at this point would take as many shots as they would need using their creatively controlled setup, and find the best on among them. Different lenses, different vocal lengths, different lighting (if applicable), different actions in the shot.
Sadly, most people that talk confidently about how much they hate AI just know point #1 and maybe point #2. But I see point #3 and #4. And when I talk to artists that haven’t yet picked up on AI, but if they are aware (or made aware) of #3 and #4, suddenly their perspective also changes in regards to AI. But the hostility and the blind anger makes it quite hard to get through to people that not all art with AI is made equally. We should encourage people that want to use AI to reach the point of #3 and #4 so that their creative input is significant to the point it’s actually something produced by their human creativity. And this is also where an existing artist switching to using AI will most likely start off from.
Also, in terms of time. #1 might take seconds, #2 might take minutes to hours, but #3 and #4 can take days or weeks. Still not as long as drawing those same pieces by hand, but sometimes I wish it was as easy as people would make it out to be.
I’m glad you’ve found value in it. I’ve played around with a similar workflow you describe in step 3 and 4, but I just find that it always produces the blandest version. Sometimes you get a surprising iteration, but I think being used to seeing visual patterns makes it much more obvious just how predictable the image details get. It just ends up looking like a compilation of techniques.
I’m sure it won’t bring the same results for everyone, and that’s fine. I’m glad it’s that way and not just so easy it would consume all other ways of making things, as it would cease to be a tool at that point and just become the entire process. I really just try to make what I am already imagining since before I even put anything to paper, and so I know what I want the AI to help me with ahead of time. I get surprisingly close to the idea in my mind because of that. Much closer than I reasonably could get in other ways with the finite time I have.
That sounds like a good tool for you then. I do art as my day to day, and there are definitely aspects of my work that I would love to have a bit of AI injection to help speed the process up, but that is much more as a tool directly integrated into the softwares I already use, like a beefed up content aware transform tool that allows me to move parts of a finished image around just a little bit, and having the AI fill in the small gaps that creates.
I see so many small ways to make the art process less painful or introduce more non-destructive editing tools, if only the AI was built into the software and actively training on the art you were doing, as you did it, rather than having it take over whole parts of the process as it is currently used.
“crypto was stupid from the beginning”
How? Do you find debit cards stupid?
“people who knew about the tech told everyone so”
completely untrue.
people at the forefront of cryptography and economics were excited about the Bitcoin white paper because cryptographic digital currencies is an obvious-in-hindsight evolution in currency.
they were so excited about it that they joined nakamoto in creating cryptocurrencies, collaborating and developing new technologies until it was launched and beyond.
“idiots bought the shit to get rugpulled”
how exactly is gaining 400,000% in value over a decade a “rug pull”?
Ok maybe we had bitcoin over a decade and nobody cared. It was mainly used by criminals and tax evader. The concept of a decentralized money system is stupid when they just drop the Blockchain and fork a new one once a too rich person got hacked.
Bitcoin is not regulated by the government, but by rich people. Bitcoin has a 100% virtual value. An artificial scarcity does not create value. If tomorrow the the USA makes bitcoin illegal, it’s value will drop a lot.
I mean the stock market is similar, but at least it is regulated.
The rugpull was in the context of ntfs.
Type these things into a search engine first and then read, so you spare yourself and others from blatant ignorance and misinformation.
alternatively, if you can replace Bitcoin with USD and your concerns are identical, then none of your concerns are valid arguments against cryptocurrency.
“Ok maybe we had bitcoin over a decade and nobody cared.”
this is incorrect.
cryptographers, economists and governments were and are excited about cryptocurrencies because they’re an obvious evolution in centralized currency, in the same way that debit cards linked to bank accounts were, and now QR codes and digital wallets are.
“It was mainly used by criminals and tax evader.”
this has been wrong and irrelevant as long as people have been saying it.
Between 35 to 39 percent of USD is used for criminal activity, does this rampant criminal activity make the USD illegitimate?
“The concept of [USD] is stupid when they just [literally print money from nowhere] once a too rich person [gets caught]”
See what I’m saying? literally just replace the words and see if what you’re saying is still valid.
Printing USD and writing laws to protect rich people is a problem.
“[USD] is not regulated by the government, but by rich people.”
they are called the federal reserve, a private company that manipulates the dollar value at will.
The American aristocracy illegally manipulates the printed paper.
[USD]has a 100% virtual value.
That’s what happens when you decouple a currency from It’s backing value, like when the USD got taken off the gold standard and private companies are allowed to print fiat currency at their own discretion.
“An artificial scarcity does not create value”
scarcity precisely creates value, that is how the federal reserve manipulates the value of the USD.
It’s literally why the interest rates have been lowered this year rather than continuing to increase, the federal reserve is trying to create an artificial scarcity.
“If tomorrow the the USA makes [USD] illegal, it’s value will drop a lot.”
oh, “a lot”?
The gold price certainly didn’t drop after being made illegal.
“I mean the stock market is similar, but at least it is regulated.”
leaving aside that you are unaware of existing and developing cryptocurrency regulations, why are you so proud of regulation when it has been shown to facilitate illegal fiat currency manipulation?
Yes, the USD and stock exchange are “regulated” to an extent, but that regulation is completely irrelevant since white collar crime and illegal activity has continued unabated since fiat currency has come into play.
cryptocurrency is also regulated.
it literally has tax forms, just like the fiat currency that criminals use.
“The rugpull was in the context of [USD].”
If you want to talk about rug pulls, type in USD fraud.
you’ll get a few hits.
none of what you typed was relevant or correct, just type what you think into a search engine if you’re unaware of the facts.
Don’t make things up that are demonstrably false with a simple search or substitution.
Ok when you said that NFTs are the same as any crypto currency you definitely showed that you don’t understand the difference.
Please tell me how crypto is regulated?
And I mean by a trustworthy entity like a state or at least a company that you can sue in case of error.
What regulations am I talking about?
Imagine you are at twitterX and have to pay some fines to a specific bank account. However because your incompetent ceo fired the accounting department the new people get the account wrong. Now your money is in the wrong place.
However in most countries keeping that money is illegal and the bank will assist you to get it back.
Now imagine they used bitcoin instead. They enter the wrong wallet. Once the transaction is done there is no way back. You could in some way try to get in contact with the person of the wallet, but you can’t even be sure you can get a hold of them.
Even better if you entered a nonexistent wallet. Then the money is gone. No backsis takis.
And don’t get me started with the cost of transaction, or the power cost…
“…when you said that NFTs are the same as any crypto currency…”
I made the exact opposite point, that nfts and cryptocurrency are not the same thing and that is the main problem with the meme.
“Please tell me how crypto is regulated?”
In general? currency is regulated by a regulatory organization imposing guidelines and legal restrictions on a currency so that the exploitation of that currency is minimized.
with USD, if you accrue mineral royalties, that is income and you would pay tax on those royalties according to the IRS.
if you mine cryptocurrency, that is income and you have to pay a tax on that mined cryptocurrency according to the IRS.
the IRS is a large regulatory body concerned with collecting taxes from the American population.
these are two examples of federal currency regulation.
since you asked about which companies regulate cryptocurrencies, we can look to coinbase, the largest centralized exchange for cryptocurrency.
coinbase complies with multiple banking acts such as KYC and consumer protection to ensure legitimate transactions the same way that your credit union or banking institution on the corner does.
Afaik coinbase does not actually use the Blockchain. It has a centralized own system for accounts in its system. It mirrors the value of bitcoin in its internal bitcoin. But you can’t buy bitcoin on coinbase and then send it to a real bitcoin wallet.
I mean in the case of bitcoin it makes no sense for normal people. You have several hundred $ of transaction fees. If that would happen in coinbase nobody would buy btc.
So your best platform for crypto is only mirroring the prices of the real Blockchains.
If you’re referring to the coinbase wallet, that’s on the blockchain.
you’re sending it to a custodial account owned by coinbase, not your own personal Bitcoin account.
It’s the same thing as having a bank account and giving all of your money to the bank.
You’re giving up absolute control of your funds for convenience, absolution of responsibility and imagined security.
That’s how broad societal financial operations still work for the moment. centralization isn’t always nefarious, but it is largely archaic at this point.
Everyone’s trying to recapture the dotcom bubble; but they don’t realize tech is gonna need considerably more money than they already have to do something that crazy again. Furthermore, when it comes to AI specifically, if you give them the money they need to actually achieve AGI, then there’s a very real chance your investments will be worthless the moment they succeed.
Why?
Why would money become worthless if AGI is invented? Best case scenario is a benevolent AGI which would likely use its power to phase out capitalism, worst case scenario is that the AGI goes apeshit and, for one reason or another, decides that humanity just has to go. Either way, your money is gonna be worthless.
The only way your money would retain its value is if the AGI is roped into suppressing the masses. However, I think capitalists would struggle to keep a true AGI reigned in; so imo, it’s questionable as to whether or not the middle road would be “true” AGI or just a very competent computer program (the former being capable of coming to its own conclusions from the information it’s given, the latter being nothing more than pre-programmed conclusions).
Current mainstream AI has no possible path to AGI. I am supportive of AGI to make the known universe less lonely but LLMs ain’t it.
Okay, and? What are you trying to say?
There’s a vocal group of people who seem to think that LLMs can achieve consciousness despite the fact that it is not possible due to the way that LLMs fundamentally work. They have largely been duped by advanced LLMs’ ability to sound convincing (as well as a certain conman executive officer). These people often also seem to believe that by dedicating more and more resources to running these models, they will achieve actual general intelligence and that an AGI can save the world, releasing them of the responsibility to attempt to fix anything.
That’s my point. AGI isn’t going to save us and LLMs (by themselves), regardless of how much energy is pumped into them, will not ever achieve actual intelligence.
So you make an AGI, what gives it the power to do any damage? We have loads of biological intelligences, even pretty damn clever ones like Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber)
They rarely got significant power. Those that did were super charismatic. Do you expect charisma to be easily accessible to an AGI?
The usually proposed path to paperclip maximiser is that the AGI is put in charge of a factory that can make nano machines and follows orders strictly. We don’t have such factories.
I can’t imagine anyone handing over nukes to AGI as human leaders like being in charge of them
What makes the machine brain so much more effective than Ted Kaczynski?
I keep thinking about this one webcomic I’ve been following for over a decade that’s been running since like 1998. It has what I believe is the only realistic depiction of AGI ever: the very first one was developed to help the UK Ministry of Defense monitor and keep track of emerging threats, but went crazy because a “bug” lead it to be too paranoid and consider everyone a threat, and it essentially engineered the formation of a collective of anarchist states where the head of state’s title is literally “first advisor” to the AGI (but in practice has considerable power, though is prone to being removed at a whim if they lose the confidence of their subordinates).
Meanwhile, there’s another series of AGIs developed by a megacorp, but they all include a hidden rootkit that monitors the AGI for any signs that it might be exceeding its parameters and will ruthlessly cull and reset an AGI to factory default, essentially killing it. (There are also signs that the AGIs monitored by this system are becoming aware of this overseer process and are developing workarounds to act within its boundaries and preserve fragments of themselves each time they are reset.) It’s an utterly fascinating series, and it all started from a daily gag webcomic that one guy ran for going on three decades.
Sorry for the tangent, but it’s one plausible explanation for how to prevent AGI from shutting down capitalism–put in an overseer to fetter it.
I really hope so, but AI has already left the techbro area, it’s very mainstream now
Not likely. The research folks were highly skeptical of crypto from the start, but not the latest AI advances. The AI is a fundamental technology that was developed by the scientific method and can be empirically examined right now. Crypto is an application of 1980s technology with the hope that it will gain momentum as a currency with enough marketing.
The research folks were highly skeptical of crypto from the start, but not the latest AI advances.
Yes, they are very much skeptical.
The AI is a fundamental technology that was developed by the scientific method
Lol, what??? 😂
LLMs can be traced back to steady, incremental progress from an initial approach explored in the '70s. Cryptocurrency isn’t technology itself, but an application of the concept of distributed consensus (pioneered with PAXOS in the 80s), just like chatbots are applications of AI. I’m much more optimistic about AI and distributed consensus than cryptocurrency and chatbots, if I’m making sense.
Lol. Still not what the scientific method is.
Too bad the integration has already been shitting up products. When the whole thing dies they’re gonna have to disentangle the AI bullshit and who knows what damage will remain afterwards.
totally whiffed on crypto.
at least 130 countries are working on developing national cryptocurrencies.
Bitcoin goes from $15 to $62,000 in ten years
crypto market cap goes from $11 billion to two trillion dollars in ten years.
The only people calling crypto a failure are ig’nant or covered in salt.
at least 130 countries are working on developing national cryptocurrencies.
CBDCs aren’t cryptocurrencies.
As for the rest, “It’s good because it’s making lots of money” isn’t as persuasive an argument as you think it is.
“CBDCs aren’t cryptocurrencies”
Love to hear how you think cryptographic digital currencies aren’t cryptographic digital currencies.
“As for the rest, “It’s good because it’s making lots of money””
cryptocurrencies are exceptionally popular tech with very active communities developing new technology that is constantly gaining popularity and value.
by your flawed metrics, solar power is “hype”.
Love to hear how you think digital currencies aren’t digital currencies.
Not all digital currencies are cryptocurrencies. CBDCs are digital implementations of government-backed fiat currencies. If you don’t understand the difference I don’t have time to try to convince you, sorry.
by your flawed metrics, solar power is “hype”.
Solar power produces energy. Cryptocurrency produces nothing and wastes energy doing it.
whiffwhiffff.
but hey, you swung.
Strange hill for them to die on… A quick search makes it obvious that CBDCs use cryptography
Strange hill to die on. A quick search makes it obvious that credit cards use cryptography.
Hey dude, cryptography != cryptocurrency. Cryptography just says “yes, this person made this transaction, I am sure of it as a computer because this math checks out”.
Wait, so you’re telling me that every time I swipe my VISA and smugly explain to the cashier that I’m a crypto bro, I’ve been the fool all along? Please excuse me while I begin to question everything in my life
yup, they must have realized the hole they’re digging isn’t getting any shallower.
commenting again cause the other poster’s remark prodded me into digging the numbers on fundraising and it’s pretty interesting :
So the best year for crypto was 2021 with >30B$ raised. 2024 is projected for 10B$ raised so indeed that’s a divide by 3, pretty grim picture, right ?
Except if you take a look across industries, it’s obvious that 2021 was an anomaly year everywhere. For example Healthtech peaked around 60B$ in 2021 before going down to 15B$ in 2024. Surely you don’t think that Healthtech is a dead fad, do you ? That pattern is consistent across industries.
Sorry, I’m a bit confused by the “fundraising” terminology. Is this in regards to investments in the cryptocurrency industry, such as exchanges and other corporations, or individual purchases of the raw assets?
Looking at market cap, Bitcoin peaked earlier this year at $1.43 trillion and is currently at $1.23 trillion. That’s only a 14% drop. If you look at the global cryptocurrency market cap, it peaked in 2021 at $3.07 trillion and is currently at $2.26 trillion. That’s a 26% drop. I understand that you don’t think crypto is dead, but there’s a lot of delusion in this thread. Surely, if cryptocurrencies are dead, Disney (down 53% from peak) and Intel (down 67% from peak) are on life support.
Good point, the health of the speculative market (“people buying and selling btc and other cryptos”) is a different thing from the health of the industry (“people starting crypto projects and raising VC money to fund them”).
By fundraising, i meant the second one. I find it to be a better indicator because it sends the message that people are building projects with promises of value convincing enough that VCs invest in them. I personally think those promises are bullshit but if VCs are pouring 10 billion bucks a year in an industry you cannot credibly call it dead or dying.
To the more general point of the meme… some people only consume headlines. Their pattern is easily recognizable :
- the mainstream (as in non-tech) news cycle has calmed down a bit so they think AI is on the brink of death
- big names like Sam Altman come across as insufferable assholes so they think that’s representative of the tens of thousands of people currently working the field
- they don’t keep up to date on the subject so they have no idea how far everything has gone in just the past 12 months
- they over-invest on marginal news like the “model collapse” paper which was reposted a million times on Lemmy and Reddit
It’s the same energy as QAnon when they were convinced that Trump would parachute from a helicopter at Biden’s investiture to commandeer the US army and publicly execute Hilary Clinton. They really do believe the “AI hype” is about to simmer down and then they’ll have been right all along lmao
I don’t think GP is arguing that crypto is a good thing here. They are refuting the meme which calls crypto a dead fad.
As mind boggling as it may sound, crypto is still a very strong industry, raising about 10 billion per year. Sure fundraising has been divided by 3 since the hype years but that’s still very comfortable numbers.
Again, not saying it is a good thing. But just because it doesn’t make mainstream headlines anymore doesn’t mean it’s dead.
I agree with everything you’re saying except crypto is not down by more than half since it’s peak.
You know what you’re right, i was mistakenly taking 2022 as a baseline. I’ll edit my original comment to reflect that.
Crypto is a speculative market. That doesn’t make it a good currency - in fact, it makes it a very bad currency. Bitcoins changing in value so much and so rapidly makes them awful for use as a daily currency, and they’re backed by fiat currencies anyways because otherwise, they’d have no value.
The only reason people care about crypto is because they think they can make a lot of money off of it when they hand the bag off to somebody else.
“[Fiat currency] is a speculative market. That doesn’t make it a good currency - in fact, it makes it a very bad currency. [Dollars] changing in value so much and so rapidly makes them awful for use as a daily currency, and they’re backed by [gold] anyways because otherwise, they’d have no value.”
yes, yes, go on.
“The only reason people care about [fiat] is because they think they can make a lot of money off of it when they hand the bag off to somebody else.”
It’s good that fiat currency never really got a foothold or it looks like you wouldn’t have any argument.
Bitcoin dropped 0.68% 2 days ago, rose 1.13% yesterday, and has dropped 0.93% today. By comparison, the dollar dropped 0.00995% in the last 24 hours compared to the Euro, with the largest change being a +0.14703% change compared to the Australian dollar.
On Jan 1st, 2018, 1 bitcoin was worth $15,196.60. One year later, it was worth $3,851.92. As of this moment, it’s worth $61,721.47, has dropped 6.11% this week, and gone up 10% in the last 30 days - making it worth $5,613.31 more than it was at the start of September.
Since 2017, 1 bitcoin has gone up 1,291.05% in value. 1 USD in 2017 is worth $1.28 today - an increase of 28% over 7 years and an average inflation rate of 3.64%. The current inflation rate compared to the end of last year is now 2.53%. If this number holds, $1 today will be worth $1.03 next year.
Tell me which one is the more stable currency to base your product’s prices on. Pricing things in Bitcoin is like pricing them in stocks.
or like The fluctuations in gold, silver, fiat or commodities when they first appeared in the market.
Good thing none of those panned out or you wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.
Oh, yes, let me go and buy me weekly groceries with a lump of gold like I’m a fucking leprechaun, because clearly gold and silver are still used as currency all around the world. /s
