"The election of Donald Trump has sparked a surge of interest in the United States in South Korea’s 4B movement, a radical feminist crusade that preaches the four B’s: bi-hon (no marriage), bi-yeonae (no dating), bi-sekseu (no sex) and bi-chulsan (no childbirth),” the Los Angeles Times reports.
“Since Nov. 5, there have been more than 500,000 Google searches for ‘4b movement,’ while on TikTok, Instagram and X, support for the cause has been trending among young women voters who are vowing to swear off men.”
Makes a lot of sense. Think about it this way: there’s a slightly better than 50 percent chance that the random dude you walked past on the street voluntarily chose to vote against your most basic rights as a person. Why the fuck would you go near them again, let alone let them touch you without some serious national reconciliation?
Why does everyone in the internet ignore that turnout was 60%??
The reality is that around 30% of americans voted for trump
By not voting, the other 40% helped put Trump in office. When the trolly is heading down the tracks to kill the lady in distress, sitting on your ass and doing nothing makes you complicit.
trolly
I hate to break it to you, but Democrats are also genocidal and through a combination of their policies and incompetence (charitable reading) created the situation which led to trump getting elected. Twice.
Here’s what actually works for getting a trolley to stop running over people:
I don’t understand what you’re saying.
You’re saying the random dude you walked past, you didn’t want to go near again or touch? Because of something they might have done?
I’m saying since 59% of white men voted for Trump, when you walk by a random dude on the street there’s around a 1 in 2 chance that that random dude voted against you being a full person. Since that percentage is so high, it’s not unreasonable for women to swear off all men until after a serious reckoning.
It was just a silly and imprecise thought experiment to make tangible some distressing statistics about what millions of men think about women.
I see the right has found another culture war issue to distract voters from the fact that they’re getting fucked by the billionaire class.
Just FYI, there is strong terf energy in this movement if you look into its primary supporters. I’m all for withholding from men who don’t support your basic human rights, that is literally why the curve from young men to mid 20s and early 30s drastically shift left, but be careful about your associations.
So jettison the terf component, it isn’t germane to the overall goal or purpose and need not be carried over just because it is part of the South Korean 4B.
I understand why they’re doing this, but Magoos are going to be laughing their asses off absolutely loving this. In their minds they wouldn’t want “a blue haired bisexual cat lady” anyway so to them the only people getting “hurt” are liberal guys who would be these women’s allies anyway.
Naturally they aren’t considering the actual safety aspect of it since they don’t give a shit… God I hate those people… :(
Plus, they think they have the green light to rape women.
Actual feminist and liberal guys should be understanding and supportive of women’s sexual/dating choices anyway. If they aren’t, then what kind of ally are they?
I’m not following the logic here. The only thing I can see is it would drive a wedge between feminists and sympathetic men. Seems like the sort of thing that would only make sense to someone uninterested in men or withdrawing from the guy they are with.
If someone has a take I’m missing, I’m all ears. I’m married 15 years and I don’t have a dog in the fight, so if I’m wrong just explain how.
If you were a woman in today’s world, why would you take the risk of dating someone who can rape, impregnate, and either leave or stay and dominate your life?
The reality is that tender, gentle, trusting relationships will still form… and the rest of the men will have to decide whether to try to be better men or not.
It makes sense to me to not date men who won’t stand up for your rights, but that’s not my read of 4B.
How do you know you’re with one of those men, really? What happens when they change their tune?
A lot of men will say whatever they need to so they can get laid. Or think they really believe it until the relationship is threatened.
It’s not that women can’t do all that too but that women now have less ways to extricate themselves from such relationships.
Why risk it?
I feel like a person would know, or at least could know. But I guess you have a point. I have a much different perspective on dating at fifty than would have at twenty.
I’m fifty as well, and I can be fairly certain my wife would not have risked dating me in the current political climate.
We were both a bit older and she had never had a very serious relationship prior to meeting me.
Who knows how the math would’ve played out? My life was a wreck and she took a gamble on me.
I’ve made sure that gamble paid off.
But nowadays the odds have changed.
I can identify with a lot of that. She was a recent divorcee, though, and I was supposedly the one with my shit together.
But I will say that there was a point in my late tens or early twenties where maybe I was going to go a different path. I could’ve turned bitter had I had to deal with loneliness at the time.
I was doing a lot of work on myself and it was messy, trying to figure out who I was. So I guess maybe I feel a certain amount of sympathy for young men in that situation. But also I’m really beyond such things at this point. It just struck me as something that gets attention but sufferers from fundamental flaws (like either they are going to find the one and have sex anyway, or they just aren’t all that interested in sex with men to begin with and this is just a way to sort of turn their lack of interest into leverage).
But I’m just not twenty any more. Times are different. Kinda glad I don’t have to navigate it.
I absolutely feel sympathy for young men. They didn’t ask for any of this either. And they might have to do some work on themselves to get to a healthier place.
I certainly struggled with relationships, to the point of not understanding signs of clear interest.
It’s hard to notice this stuff when your head is down with despair.
Why risk it? Because human companionship can be an extremely rewarding thing.
People can find all sorts of reasons to shut themselves off and create walls to protect themselves from “what if”. I hope they are happy with their decision, but in my experience, that road is a one way ticket to loneliness, ineffectiveness, and resentful feelings.
A lot of men will say whatever they need to so they can get laid.
There is a word for people who make this sort of negative stereotyping of a whole sex.
I’m a sympathetic man and this makes total sense and I support them fully.
There is no wedge.
Here here!
Are you in a relationship?
Yes but it wouldn’t change my opinion. Because I don’t need to be getting my dick wet to support women.
It’s hilarious how much incel sympathy materializes on lemmy the very microsecond critical support starts involving the prospect of some deferred male orgasms.
Hint for those who don’t get it - it’s not about the sex. It’s about sending a message.
I’m asking because you seem to be an ally. How would your partner withholding sex from you improve the national situation at all? How does lack of sex enhance your already current position of being a supportive ally? How does others knowing that your partner is denying you sex entice them to adopt your views as their own?
My point is that the people this is likely to be deployed against are not the ones causing the problem.
If my partner were part of this movement she’d be breaking up with me entirely, not just withholding sex. But if she was withholding sex from me because of this there’s not really anything I can do because I’m not going to force her to do it because I’m not an asshole. Plus I’m not with her just for sex so withholding sex wouldn’t severely impact our relationship or my wanting to be an ally.
My point is that the people this is likely to be deployed against are not the ones causing the problem.
Maybe if the ones not causing the problem caused more problems for the ones causing the problem they would stop causing problems.
Short of shooting people, what step should the average man take beyond voting, protesting, donating, and holding other men in our circle accountable? Trump gained ground with women too.
Maybe not shooting. Maybe it’s a swift kick in the nards. /s
Clearly all those things haven’t been working, so now we need to be more radical. Hence these women taking this radical approach.
The logic is to prevent pregnancy in an environment that has become hostile towards women’s rights. Sex becomes far more dangerous if you don’t have access to contraceptives and abortion.
Fwiw, I’m in a LTR with a “4B ally” (and also consider myself an ally). A key points here is that I’ve also had a vasectomy.
I know it doesn’t seem fair, and if you look at it through the lens of punishing men then maybe it isn’t. But if you view it as women protecting themselves (e.g. from pregnancy) then it makes perfect sense.
I’m not really looking at it through the lens of fairness, I think, other than maybe sympathetic. I’m just not sure it addresses the problem. Seems to be the biggest issue for liberal men who wouldn’t date a conservative woman. And they aren’t likely to be the problem, nor is creating a rift the solution.
But I can 100% see a woman who is simply unwilling to risk pregnancy in this environment regardless of partner.
I have to admit I don’t understand the friendly fire aspect of this. I totally get wanting to withhold everything positive, including any sort of affection at all, from anyone that voted for this, but doing it uniformly?
I also understand wanting to fully vet just what kind of “ally” you might be dealing with while dating. Obviously guys will lie about such a thing since they know that voting for donvict is a huge turnoff, at minimum, never mind this movement.
I also don’t have a dog in the fight.
“Not giving consent is radical”
- the fuckwit that wrote this article.
Interestingly, research shows a surprising trend related to this topic: young adults today, on the whole, are engaging in less sexual activity than any generation for which we have data. Yet, this shift isn’t equally distributed across genders—where young men (ages 18-25) once reported slightly higher rates of sexual activity than young women, the pattern has reversed. Now, young women report engaging in sex more frequently than their male counterparts, with the gender gap widening now to a degree that significantly favors women in this area.
The reasons for this shift are still under debate. Economic pressures, the influence of digital media, and evolving social norms are all posited as contributing factors. But the data does suggest (this is based on CDC and JAMA studies) that a smaller subset of men are experiencing a larger share of sexual activity, aligning with certain internet memes and narratives about “Chads” dominating the dating scene. Whether these cultural constructs, such as the “MRA” or “Chad” phenomenon, are reflective of or reactive to this social shift remains unclear. Nonetheless, they generally resonate with the timeline of the observed trends around sexual activity. I’ll be curious to see how the trends indirectly the future of dating and sexual relationships among young adults.
But, all that aside, if more women choose to opt out of traditional dating or sexual encounters with men, more power to women. Coincidentally, it could begin to narrow or at least slow the widening gender gap in this area. I am unsure if that would be good, bad, or neutral. In general, a healthy sex life seems to be an important dimension of the human experience. I would imagine the fact that the overall trends are going down is probably a negative for the psychology of a generation, but I guess we’ll see.
This age cohort also drinks less, has more eating disorders, smokes/vapes less, is more sleep deprived, parties less, is more risk-averse, has shorter attention spans, experiments with drugs less, is more (prescription) medicated, is more depressed, is more socially isolated, and is more anxious than previous generations at the same ages. Looking at research on Gen Z is pretty crazy. And it can be depressing sometimes, but it’s a particularly unique age cohort. Scholars widely acknowledge Gen Z as being markedly different than previous youth generations.
support for the cause has been trending among young women voters who are vowing to swear off men.
hell yeah
This idea is so stupid, in my opinion. Liberal women are likely with liberal partners—they will be punishing their allies. Punishing allied men for things that other people have done is a good way to radicalize them into becoming republicans.
The more we solve our problems by withdrawing from each other and punishing each other, especially those who are not the direct cause of our problems, the more we exacerbate the division in this country.
The only people who should be withholding sex from loving partners when they would otherwise be interested are people who are sleeping with a Musk or a Trump. Everyone else is just causing more hurt with no positive outcome.
It’s to protect against pregnancy in an environment where women’s rights have been eroded.
If Project 2025 takes away abortion rights and even contraceptives, sex becomes a really big risk.
The movement is to deny sex, not specifically to deny pregnancy. If it was about that, then sterile men and women would be excluded from this movement, but there is no mention of that at all. It’s just “swear off men, swear off sex”.
bi-chulsan (no childbirth)
See, this is one of the FOUR Bs.
Being pregnant is risky enough in an enlightened society where no healthcare is withheld. I’m not a woman but I don’t blame them for trying to protect themselves.
There’s what is stated and what is implied. In the absence of any sort of formal or “official” organization, participants get to choose their own level of involvement.
I often refer to “birthstrike” as a conceptually similar and related group.
Well they should consider making the implication clearer, because I honestly feel that the way it is stated will do more harm than good. If it is a birth strike aimed at abortion risks, then call it that.
I have supported women’s rights in every way I know how in my lifetime, but I can’t go along with this movement as it is currently stated—to me that suggests that they need to refine the messaging a little, or explain the desired outcome more clearly.
Agreed
Indeed, it seems this messaging may end up with the same energy as “defund the police” did…an albatross to put around the necks of the majority of people in this country (even if they don’t always vote. FFS.).
Also, the chuds are just going to call all the liberal men dating liberal women “cucks” even more at this point…this will feed right into their enjoyment and they are going to bask in it.
Punishing allied men for things that other people have done is a good way to radicalize them into becoming republicans.
If not getting your dick wet turns you into a republican you were never a real ally.
That is reducing my point to the most inflammatory interpretation.
Some men have been very negatively impacted by the political climate of the last 10 years too. They have weathered a lot of “white man” blame while trying to be a force for good. They have voted as an ally, protested as an ally, and held their peers accountable. And now their partner cuts off physical affection.
A man doesn’t have to be a false ally for those realities to put him in a psychological place that will make him vulnerable to conservative manipulators. It opens the door to the question “how’s your liberalism working for you?”
Denial of physical affection is a real grievance, and outside of this protest, it is usually considered an issue that needs to be fixed in a relationship. Think hard before intentionally creating relationship issues to prove a political/moral point.
4B is not women witholding sex from their partners. It’s single women choosing to stay that way and be celibate. Maybe you should find out what it is before taking it personally.
And now their partner cuts off physical affection.
Sex is not the only form of physical affection.
A man doesn’t have to be a false ally for those realities to put him in a psychological place that will make him vulnerable to conservative manipulators.
If he can’t recognize conservative manipulation then he’s maybe not a false ally, but a pretty terrible one.
The reason I hate that your response is so common is it perpetuates the stereotype of men requiring sex to prevent then from becoming animals. It’s a subtle form of misandry that so many men force on others.
You are taking only the most inflammatory version of what I’m saying. Sex isn’t the only intimacy, but it is a very powerful tool for that. There are strong biological drives for sexual expression and satisfaction, and denying those leads to emotional problems—we see this all the time with homosexuals who can’t be happy in a heterosexual box. If someone has been manipulated by one of the most advanced propaganda machines ever created, that isn’t a sign that they are a “terrible” ally.
I’m not saying men only want sex, I’m saying that suddenly taking away a biological tool for human connection that they have typically had, while also living though really difficult times, while also acting like the continued desire for sex is somehow selfish on the man’s part, is a really effective way to make someone listen to the opposing side when they are promising a fiction where men have it good again.
tl;dr - If men don’t get their dick wet they’ll become republicans.
That is not what I was saying, and I don’t appreciate your interpretation of it.
I’m saying that suddenly taking away a biological tool for human connection that they have typically had… is a really effective way to make someone listen to the opposing side when they are promising a fiction where men have it good again.
If men don’t have the “biological tool for human connection” then they’ll “listen to the opposing side” sounds a lot like “If you don’t fuck me I’ll turn MAGA.”
Choosing not to date is now radical?
“radical feminism” refers to a specific ideology born of the second wave, not just any feminism that is radical.
Tubular!
Gnarly, dude!
Tbh I’m just glad I’m not some sort of heterosexual
Even though this reduces my chances of having sex to 0% (prev. 0%) I fully support this movement
“WGTOW”
I do not really see how that would help, as i hope these people would not have sex with right wingers in the first place but if they want to not have sex and all that other stuff power to them i guess.
The female MAGA-“brains” will not join, anyway, so they will continue to procreate, while the reasonable half of the country heads towards a frustrated extinction. Congratulations, feminists, to that rousing success.
“Women should consider that their choices about their bodies might frustrate men”
It is their choice, and I won’t tell them to do it or not. But in this case it would be rather futile.
