“Badly implemented colorblind policies didn’t stop racism in this one country, so let’s have explicitly racist policies.”
If they are still racist, they are not colorblind. Make stronger colorblind policies and enforce them. Color aware policies don’t do anything either if they are only on paper.
Besides, you ignore the point of my criticism. Color aware policies don’t prevent inequity, they shift it elsewhere. They keep some places and aspects of life racist while having other be reverse racist. On individual level, the inequity increases, but people pat themselves on the back because when you only look at it based on color, it averages out. It is like saying we should increase the pay of Billionaires to increase average wages. The statistic looks better, but it did not help most people.
I have general ideas in what direction to look at, but I don’t see how I could post them without this inevitably devolving into off-topic discussion of hiring policies.
I think we may be operating on different suppositions, so addressing that rather than wasting time clarifying details about France’s choice to never record demographic stats for things would be best.
Do you think systemic racism exists and is a large problem in the USA or France?
To what extent do you think that implicit or unconscious bias cause visible minority groups to need to have to work harder and be more exceptional to get a position, role, or responsiblity, or a n on-category specified grant, assistance, or similar?
I think it would considerably vary from place to place, even workplace to workplace. In some (rare) places not at all, in some places considerably. I would be entirely guessing if I was to say what the average was.
Replying to this one because newer. Have read and taken the other reply of yours into account too.
I agree that we’re off on a vibes and feels thing here because we don’t have the data, and obviously it will vary between workplaces and individuals (even if to put systemic issues as individual choice/responsibility just covers for those systemic issues).
We do have data from France showing that their entirely colourblind governance has not helped, despite targeting on socio economic or geographic bounds.
When surely, if colourblind policies would do better at undoing systemic racism, wouldn’t France have had better outcomes from them?
Look, I don’t know what exactly France did, maybe colorblind measures are not very effective. Maybe France picked stupid ones and implemented them badly. Let’s not pretend there is only one way to do colorblind hiring.
But my counter question is this. You say it did not help in France. How do you measure that? If one black person has it much easier while another was not helped at all, is that success? That is what I have issue with. Color-aware policies are extremely likely to just fake the statistics about groups, while if you actually compare random person to random person, it is just as (if not more) unfair as before. I believe it does not create real equity, it just fools statistics.
You should not measure inequity between arbitrary groups. You should measure inequity between individuals to get a reliable metric.
Secondly, I do agree that targets and statistics inevitably distort and pervert any goals. So it will tend towards failure, but that’s government. It never really works, and since I assume we’re talking about the system we’re in rather than a new one I don’t think it’s a deal-breaker.
Thirdly, and most pertinently: due to systemic racism/prejudices there is a barrier to various arbitrary socially constructed groups that other arbitrary socially constructed groups do not need to deal with.
By ignoring that there is a barrier to some in the form of systemic prejudice you don’t actually help those more discriminated against groups. You just help the arbitrary groups that are less discriminated against. Maybe you have less inequality overall because the discriminated against group is a minority, but I don’t think either of us think that that makes it “better”.
This is in fact where France has gotten to in its starting to analyse it’s own colourblindness.
“Badly implemented colorblind policies didn’t stop racism in this one country, so let’s have explicitly racist policies.”
If they are still racist, they are not colorblind. Make stronger colorblind policies and enforce them. Color aware policies don’t do anything either if they are only on paper.
Besides, you ignore the point of my criticism. Color aware policies don’t prevent inequity, they shift it elsewhere. They keep some places and aspects of life racist while having other be reverse racist. On individual level, the inequity increases, but people pat themselves on the back because when you only look at it based on color, it averages out. It is like saying we should increase the pay of Billionaires to increase average wages. The statistic looks better, but it did not help most people.
Any suggestion of such policies and ways to enforce them?
I have general ideas in what direction to look at, but I don’t see how I could post them without this inevitably devolving into off-topic discussion of hiring policies.
I think we may be operating on different suppositions, so addressing that rather than wasting time clarifying details about France’s choice to never record demographic stats for things would be best.
Do you think systemic racism exists and is a large problem in the USA or France?
Yes.
OK, we agree on that.
To what extent do you think that implicit or unconscious bias cause visible minority groups to need to have to work harder and be more exceptional to get a position, role, or responsiblity, or a n on-category specified grant, assistance, or similar?
I think it would considerably vary from place to place, even workplace to workplace. In some (rare) places not at all, in some places considerably. I would be entirely guessing if I was to say what the average was.
Replying to this one because newer. Have read and taken the other reply of yours into account too.
I agree that we’re off on a vibes and feels thing here because we don’t have the data, and obviously it will vary between workplaces and individuals (even if to put systemic issues as individual choice/responsibility just covers for those systemic issues).
We do have data from France showing that their entirely colourblind governance has not helped, despite targeting on socio economic or geographic bounds.
When surely, if colourblind policies would do better at undoing systemic racism, wouldn’t France have had better outcomes from them?
Look, I don’t know what exactly France did, maybe colorblind measures are not very effective. Maybe France picked stupid ones and implemented them badly. Let’s not pretend there is only one way to do colorblind hiring.
But my counter question is this. You say it did not help in France. How do you measure that? If one black person has it much easier while another was not helped at all, is that success? That is what I have issue with. Color-aware policies are extremely likely to just fake the statistics about groups, while if you actually compare random person to random person, it is just as (if not more) unfair as before. I believe it does not create real equity, it just fools statistics.
You should not measure inequity between arbitrary groups. You should measure inequity between individuals to get a reliable metric.
First, maybe this will help fill in as a starter on the French situation.
Secondly, I do agree that targets and statistics inevitably distort and pervert any goals. So it will tend towards failure, but that’s government. It never really works, and since I assume we’re talking about the system we’re in rather than a new one I don’t think it’s a deal-breaker.
Thirdly, and most pertinently: due to systemic racism/prejudices there is a barrier to various arbitrary socially constructed groups that other arbitrary socially constructed groups do not need to deal with.
By ignoring that there is a barrier to some in the form of systemic prejudice you don’t actually help those more discriminated against groups. You just help the arbitrary groups that are less discriminated against. Maybe you have less inequality overall because the discriminated against group is a minority, but I don’t think either of us think that that makes it “better”.
This is in fact where France has gotten to in its starting to analyse it’s own colourblindness.
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