For starters, understanding that American fascism is not the result of voters simply not being informed enough. The idea that, if all Trump supporters simply had access to better information, if they all had better education, if they were exposed to the right argument… then they’d see the light and turn into democrats - is a supremely liberal idea. We need to understand that no amount of epic slams, no amount of late night talk show roasts, no amount of facts and logic will steer us out of fascism.
As we devolve deeper and deeper into fascism, it has been frustrating watching liberals flail to try and understand how the devolution is happening: is it because people are uneducated? Is it because of Joe Rogan’s podcasts? Is it because of Russian spies? Is it because Trump has started a cult? Is it because Fox News? Is it because lead was used in gasoline 50 years ago? Is it because we use lead water pipes? Is it because of Ronald Reagan? All of this waffling to avoid the hard questions. I.e, “is it possible that fascism is the only logical conclusion a nation which was founded solely by white landowners to do wholesale on genocide on native Americans?”
If you fail to start thinking about this devolution into fascism in terms of history, class, and material conditions, you’re always going to be hopelessly confused about the structures and frameworks that allow fascism to fester.
The idea that, if all Trump supporters simply had access to better information, if they all had better education, if they were exposed to the right argument… then they’d see the light and turn into democrats - is a supremely liberal idea. We need to understand that no amount of epic slams, no amount of late night talk show roasts, no amount of facts and logic will steer us out of fascism.
Well said. And honestly, it’s even counterproductive, because that assumption is a core reason why people view the establishment Left as patronizing and elitist.
It also reminds me of one of my favorite Onion videos: https://youtu.be/lpzVc7s-_e8 (I like Judith Butler, and I’ve even read some of Gender Trouble, but the premise and execution just gets me in stitches every time.)
Well, I don’t think you’re wrong about an informed/educated populace not being sufficient to overcome fascism, but I have a hard time seeing us overcoming it without some level of education.
Though obviously, the type of education matters (e.g., how kids are taught about Columbus is probably the most egregious example of a failure by the public school system to educate)
is it possible that fascism is the only logical conclusion a nation which was founded solely by white landowners to do wholesale on genocide on native Americans?
No, but it is the only logical conclusion of a nation that continues to venerate those genocidal landowners as heroes.
If you’re really going to sit here and pretend that none of the things I mentioned play a clear and obvious role in our current situation, I don’t even know where to start with you.
Strawman. Never did I say that the things you mentioned dont play a role in facilitating fascism.
Poor education, MIC, captured media, sure… all of these things facilitate fascism.
My point is that your analysis does not get at the heart of how fascism arises or why america is going full throated fascist in recent years. Why do we have poor education? Why do we have a bloated MIC? Why has our mainstream media been captured? Why is conservatism increasingly in fashion?
You’re not going to get to the heart of these questions by ignoring class. You’ll especially fail to answer these questions if you just blame some nebulous concept of “conservatism” wholesale. Youve correctly identified the symptoms, but you still need to take the next step w/ class-based, material analysis.
It festers because people bitch online then go break bread with their fascist Republican families.
Which has made those of us that will say something the bad guys (look at how they label themselves victims of words now).
If you do not fucking say something to those people EVERY CHANCE YOU FUCKING GET this is your fault!
They HATE shame. THEY GOT HERE BY BEING SHAMED BY THE GOP. SHAME THE FUCK OUT OF THEM! Take the damn flag back and prove they are the anti Americans already!
No, I think you missed my point entirely. No amount of shame, facts and logic, or blasts will stop fascism.
Until regulatory agencies stop being captured, until people can own homes, until people can retire, until people can get healthcare, until people can get childcare, the fascist devolution will continue.
You’re still clinging to this ultra liberal idea that the “marketplace of ideas” is what ultimately turns the wheel of history and politics. It’s the idea that politics and history is driven by individuals taking ideological stances, and that the only way to change history is to change minds. This could not be more incorrect. I really encourage you to do some introductory reading into Marxism - which historically has been the greatest defense against fascism, as well as has the most comprehensive explanation of how fascism happens. Wage Labor and Capital is a great start.
For starters, understanding that American fascism is not the result of voters simply not being informed enough. The idea that, if all Trump supporters simply had access to better information, if they all had better education, if they were exposed to the right argument… then they’d see the light and turn into democrats - is a supremely liberal idea. We need to understand that no amount of epic slams, no amount of late night talk show roasts, no amount of facts and logic will steer us out of fascism.
As we devolve deeper and deeper into fascism, it has been frustrating watching liberals flail to try and understand how the devolution is happening: is it because people are uneducated? Is it because of Joe Rogan’s podcasts? Is it because of Russian spies? Is it because Trump has started a cult? Is it because Fox News? Is it because lead was used in gasoline 50 years ago? Is it because we use lead water pipes? Is it because of Ronald Reagan? All of this waffling to avoid the hard questions. I.e, “is it possible that fascism is the only logical conclusion a nation which was founded solely by white landowners to do wholesale on genocide on native Americans?”
If you fail to start thinking about this devolution into fascism in terms of history, class, and material conditions, you’re always going to be hopelessly confused about the structures and frameworks that allow fascism to fester.
Well said. And honestly, it’s even counterproductive, because that assumption is a core reason why people view the establishment Left as patronizing and elitist.
It also reminds me of one of my favorite Onion videos: https://youtu.be/lpzVc7s-_e8 (I like Judith Butler, and I’ve even read some of Gender Trouble, but the premise and execution just gets me in stitches every time.)
Well, I don’t think you’re wrong about an informed/educated populace not being sufficient to overcome fascism, but I have a hard time seeing us overcoming it without some level of education. Though obviously, the type of education matters (e.g., how kids are taught about Columbus is probably the most egregious example of a failure by the public school system to educate)
You educate those around you, not give up on them because “it’s not worth it” you fight for this even if it means your own mother disowns you.
No, but it is the only logical conclusion of a nation that continues to venerate those genocidal landowners as heroes.
If you’re really going to sit here and pretend that none of the things I mentioned play a clear and obvious role in our current situation, I don’t even know where to start with you.
Strawman. Never did I say that the things you mentioned dont play a role in facilitating fascism.
Poor education, MIC, captured media, sure… all of these things facilitate fascism.
My point is that your analysis does not get at the heart of how fascism arises or why america is going full throated fascist in recent years. Why do we have poor education? Why do we have a bloated MIC? Why has our mainstream media been captured? Why is conservatism increasingly in fashion?
You’re not going to get to the heart of these questions by ignoring class. You’ll especially fail to answer these questions if you just blame some nebulous concept of “conservatism” wholesale. Youve correctly identified the symptoms, but you still need to take the next step w/ class-based, material analysis.
Hey now, I resent that. I read at a ninth grade level!
It festers because people bitch online then go break bread with their fascist Republican families.
Which has made those of us that will say something the bad guys (look at how they label themselves victims of words now).
If you do not fucking say something to those people EVERY CHANCE YOU FUCKING GET this is your fault!
They HATE shame. THEY GOT HERE BY BEING SHAMED BY THE GOP. SHAME THE FUCK OUT OF THEM! Take the damn flag back and prove they are the anti Americans already!
No, I think you missed my point entirely. No amount of shame, facts and logic, or blasts will stop fascism.
Until regulatory agencies stop being captured, until people can own homes, until people can retire, until people can get healthcare, until people can get childcare, the fascist devolution will continue.
You’re still clinging to this ultra liberal idea that the “marketplace of ideas” is what ultimately turns the wheel of history and politics. It’s the idea that politics and history is driven by individuals taking ideological stances, and that the only way to change history is to change minds. This could not be more incorrect. I really encourage you to do some introductory reading into Marxism - which historically has been the greatest defense against fascism, as well as has the most comprehensive explanation of how fascism happens. Wage Labor and Capital is a great start.