My guess is numbers. “Only” 28k palestinians vs. over 6 million jews. Also that they’re not being killed en masse after capture (although it really feels like Netanyahu would love to do that)
This is where you bring out Gabor Maté, who was born a year before the Holocaust ended, doesn’t live in Israel/Palestine, and yet is taken very seriously by the media. One could equally bring out Mosab Hassan Yousef on the other side, who is to my mind actually more compelling, as he has actually worked for both sides.
I guess you don’t equate it because the prisoners aren’t starved and abused enough? How much worse do you want it to get before you denounce it? It’s at least as bad as what the Americans were doing in the Abu Ghraib prison.
Multiple Children in Gaza have already been killed with starvation by israel. Palestinians locked in a concentration camp.
WHO can’t even bring food to the north which is supposedly “fully controlled by israel” which tells you enough about intentional starvation and genocide.
If you wanna do Genocide denial consider Reddit. We have indeed lost that “nuance” which you still posses.
OP presents a great example of intelligence vs wisdom. Intelligence is knowing the Holocaust was technically worse. Wisdom is knowing that really doesn’t matter here. The nuance they’re talking about is pointless, especially when you consider that we didn’t know about the forced labor, heinous science experiments, and systematic killing until later on.
The earlier stages of the Holocaust were very similar to what Israel is doing now. And what’s scary is that they’re accelerating too.
That sort of comment is to be expected on Lemmy. A lot of very ignorant people here. Obviously the Holocaust wasn’t as well taught in Australia as it was in the Netherlands.
Yeah, I can’t believe anyone would be ignorant enough to compare Israel’s actions to the Holocaust. The Palestinian genocide clearly has more in common with the Armenian genocide than the Jewish genocide. I mean, forcing the Palestinians into southern Gaza while killing them indiscriminately and starving them to death is just begging for a comparison to the 1915 death marches. C’mon people, more countries than just Germany and Israel have committed genocide, think for a minute about your historical parallels!
So… you are skeptical and critical of how much the Israeli genocide of Palestine resembles the Holocaust? The issue is not that. The issue is that Israel of all countries is doing this even in a smaller and “milder” form.
I mean, I think people go to the Nazi well a little too frequently. It’s almost like, “you’re on my side, or you’re a Nazi.”
Now, this has made it very confusing in recent years when we had real-ass nazis trying to claim power. But pointing that out became muddied when held up to the years and years of “Nazi” labels being thrown around.
However, it’s not completely out of line to be making genocide claims. Because…I mean…what’s happening in Gaza is pretty standard genocidal behavior. But with the nazis being the standard bearer of what people see as genocide, people usually only express it as “this is the holocaust.”
And if you think it’s okay to do this to prisoners—I mean, you’re belittling abuse by making some flippant remark about keeping six people tied on their hands and knees in a four foot room while keeping them malnourished—then you’re only missing one aspect of why people are calling what’s happening a genocide. The other aspect of that is all of the rhetoric coming from Israel that shows the sort of “sub-human” othering of the Palestinian people along with the seemingly complete annihilation of this culture and people.
The “no mattresses” thing isn’t happening in a vacuum. It’s happening within the context of prisoner abuse. Which is happening within the context of and overwhelming force keeping a specific group penned into a smaller and smaller area, while they seemingly indiscriminately bomb a cultural group nearly out of existence, while there is system-wide othering of this group of people, and they’re spoken of as if they’re sub-human. And treated that way.
Keep them in shackles in very small cells with nothing, not even mattresses or food that is more than bread. This is subhuman treatment. A lot of prisons in other countries which is equally fucked up but that is not relevant for this conversation
Imagine yourself in the place of one of these men. How would you feel? Would that be acceptable to you? Would that be acceptable to your parents? Would it be acceptable to your spouse to not know where you are being held or why? Would it be acceptable for you as a lawyer to get no legal representation because a colonizer decided you are going to be tortured and humiliated for being X ethnicity?
No-one is debating that the IDF are way over the line, but the comment made was comparing a picture of a masked dude saying the prisoners should be made to sleep without a mattress to the industrialised murder of an entire ethnic group over the majority of a continent with the sole purpose of eradicating them.
Yellow cheese and bread would be fine with me if I was in prison as an enemy combatant and suspected terrorist.
Such detention is usually indefinite, or at least usually lasts until whatever conflict ends, and POWs usually do not have a right to counsel.
Stress positions are torture and that’s not a subject I know much about from an international law standpoint. If it’s not illegal it should be.
But here you are once again without enough information to form a strong opinion, getting emotional, and reacting as if you have a real good idea of what’s happening in this video, which you do not. Are they stress positions that the inmates are forced to maintain for hours at a time, or were they told to get on the ground with their heads down and legs crossed so the cell could be opened safely for whoever that is touring the facility?
The video and audio are cut up and spliced. You have no idea what the speaker is talking about when he says “this is how it should be after October 7.” Does he mean they should be in prison? Does he mean they should not be moving or talking? Does he mean they should be eating only white bread and yellow cheese? Does he mean they should be in stress positions being tortured? Who knows? Not me, not you. And this is how we got here: people reacting to the worst half of a story and automatically assuming the worst possible explanation. That’s just not how I operate; I can see that I do not have enough information to have a strong opinion about this video or photos, so I don’t have one.
Jesus. Even the US gives “enemy combatants” MREs. They are done and out of the fight. There’s no reason to mistreat them at that point. It’s just cruelty for the sake of it and no it’s not legal.
I had to guard detainees before they were taken to the rear, and after searching them they keep their clothes and get an MRE and a bottle of water. You just sit there in silence then. Nothing else is required. The fact that they’re in an armed camp handcuffed and hooded is enough to keep them quiescent. And once they’re in a prison there’s certainly no reason to treat them worse than we did in the field.
If you’ve got them to spare, sure. I suppose you are right. Bread and cheese alone is no way to feed someone and has plenty of negative health consequence. I still don’t know enough about what the photo shows. How long does this diet persist for, is this a factor of intentional choice or is what they have extra in a warzone!
And to your second point, how about if the muckity mucks come for a tour and inspection, which is what this video seems to me to show, or if this is the intake holding or transport procedure?
If Israel doesn’t have food to spare then there are far larger problems not being discussed. Also, if this is what their leadership expects then that’s a big problem.
Do you even know for sure these men are Hamss? Or do you just believe any “report”?
Asking since you seem to think criminals deserve no human rights. As a lawyer I’m sure this isn’t your professional opinion but somehow it’s good enough for Palestinians 🙂
And btw was America a democracy when women and black people couldn’t vote? This was a question on another thread about a similar topic
Ok, I mean you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m just saying that what happens during a war is only clear after it’s ended. And certainly isn’t clear to keyboard warriors sitting on their couch in the states or Europe. There’s a very famous photo of German POWs being shown footage of a death camp prior to their release. The expressions on their faces show very clearly that they had no idea what was happening.
Similarly after this conflict is over, it is very possible that some extremely damming evidence will come to light. But until the war is over, you have to assume that most of what you see on both sides will be propaganda or taken out of context to promote a political ideology. And it’s a foolish comparison to make without more evidence than an out of context picture of an asshole prison guard.
Everyone else seems to see enough clearly damning evidence. But no problem, we can wait until the genocide is over and all Gazans are dead. 👍 That way you don’t have to believe us “keyboard warriors” sharing journalistic investigations and video footage of the mayhem.
Believe me I think Israel should pull out of Gaza and the settlers should leave the west bank. And I also believe that Palestine should be granted full independence according to 1967 borders. And I genuinely think that that would go a long way to establishing a climate of mutual hostility instead of straight up violence (I’m not naive enough to think that Israelis and Palestinians will ever be friends). Of course I shouldn’t be consulted, because I don’t live there and consulting Europeans about national borders in the middle east doesn’t seem to work. But I’m still not going to judge either side as being as bad as the Nazis, because I don’t have enough information to make that call.
I am 100% against the IDF entering Gaza and executing civilians or Israelis settling in the west bank. I am also 100% against kidnapping civilians and digging up water pipes to make unguided rockets to be fired indiscriminately into residential areas.
I’m Palestinian Jordanian. My father is from Yaffa (Tel Aviv) and my mother is from a town nearby that was destroyed and turned into a settlement after the entire population was driven out after trying to defend themselves in 1947-48. My grandparents were in the Nakba as children and fled to Jordan, eventually receiving citizenship. My father grew up in a refugee camp in Jordan and my mother grew up in poverty as a result of the Nakba.
Usually when people ask I just say I’m Jordanian to avoid the clutter of explaining all of this but I thought you might like a full answer.
Dude. We have actual evidence, not circumstantial, not biased witnesses; of Israel inducing a famine, shooting unarmed civilians trying to cross their lines, killing reporters, and using doctors as human shields. (Who they then killed anyway).
This isn’t a wait until it’s over thing. This is an act now thing. For reference these guys already have more credible war crime allegations in 4 months than the US had in 20 years over a much larger area. It’s not rocket science.
No Reddit is just as bad. This is a problem with people substituting ideology for intelligence. People will believe anything if they like the people telling them to. The truth of the matter is that no-one who is not involved in the conflict actually knows about what’s actually going on there. The IDF obviously have an incentive to cover up war crimes, but at the same time Hamas (a group internationally recognized as a terorist organization) is the government in the Gaza Strip and all the statistics about civilian casualties are cited as coming from "the government of Palestine.
So again talking about the nazi Party and Israel in the same breath on the basis of a single translated image is fucking stupid.
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The fact that Israel has intentionally put itself in the position to be compared to the horrors of Nazi Germany is the problem, bud.
I can’t understand how these people are so blinded by the facts right in front of their faces. I guess the hate is strong
My guess is numbers. “Only” 28k palestinians vs. over 6 million jews. Also that they’re not being killed en masse after capture (although it really feels like Netanyahu would love to do that)
Yup. Thanks for checking.
Genocide.
We are comparing the German-Jewish genocide with the Israeli-Palestinian genocide.
What would you compare it to? Is this how prisoners should be treated?
Guantanamo would be a better comparison … for now
Which can also be compared to nazi behavior. So much sick shit was done to the prisoners there
Sounds pretty bad still
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Would you accept this if holocaust survivors made this comparison?
This is where you bring out Gabor Maté, who was born a year before the Holocaust ended, doesn’t live in Israel/Palestine, and yet is taken very seriously by the media. One could equally bring out Mosab Hassan Yousef on the other side, who is to my mind actually more compelling, as he has actually worked for both sides.
So yes or no? BTW I don’t even know these people you are reffering to.
https://youtu.be/ph9XF39yjgU?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/gl5OOpCFUCs?feature=shared
I don’t like piers Morgan btw, it’s just good for comparison to have the same person interview both people.
So yes or no? I’ll click the link when I get an answer. Otherwise it feels like you are beating around the bush.
People were held in a atrocious conditions and then murdered.
The only thing different here is forced labour. Maybe the IDF will also implement that idea.
Yes. We’re comparing two countries run by Lebensraum human trash.
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Man Israel was literally founded on a successful Lebensrsaum scheme.
Seems fair to me
Shut the fuck up pearl clutcher
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Besides Gaz Chambers they are very similar
I guess you don’t equate it because the prisoners aren’t starved and abused enough? How much worse do you want it to get before you denounce it? It’s at least as bad as what the Americans were doing in the Abu Ghraib prison.
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Multiple Children in Gaza have already been killed with starvation by israel. Palestinians locked in a concentration camp.
WHO can’t even bring food to the north which is supposedly “fully controlled by israel” which tells you enough about intentional starvation and genocide.
If you wanna do Genocide denial consider Reddit. We have indeed lost that “nuance” which you still posses.
OP presents a great example of intelligence vs wisdom. Intelligence is knowing the Holocaust was technically worse. Wisdom is knowing that really doesn’t matter here. The nuance they’re talking about is pointless, especially when you consider that we didn’t know about the forced labor, heinous science experiments, and systematic killing until later on.
The earlier stages of the Holocaust were very similar to what Israel is doing now. And what’s scary is that they’re accelerating too.
I believe we knew just not the extent.
My apologies. I missed that. 👍
Yeah man! That bread does not even have mold on it! /s
Tucker sniffing ergot again?
That sort of comment is to be expected on Lemmy. A lot of very ignorant people here. Obviously the Holocaust wasn’t as well taught in Australia as it was in the Netherlands.
Yeah, I can’t believe anyone would be ignorant enough to compare Israel’s actions to the Holocaust. The Palestinian genocide clearly has more in common with the Armenian genocide than the Jewish genocide. I mean, forcing the Palestinians into southern Gaza while killing them indiscriminately and starving them to death is just begging for a comparison to the 1915 death marches. C’mon people, more countries than just Germany and Israel have committed genocide, think for a minute about your historical parallels!
So… you are skeptical and critical of how much the Israeli genocide of Palestine resembles the Holocaust? The issue is not that. The issue is that Israel of all countries is doing this even in a smaller and “milder” form.
It is pretty much something the nazis would do though
What, not give people a mattress?
I mean, I think people go to the Nazi well a little too frequently. It’s almost like, “you’re on my side, or you’re a Nazi.”
Now, this has made it very confusing in recent years when we had real-ass nazis trying to claim power. But pointing that out became muddied when held up to the years and years of “Nazi” labels being thrown around.
However, it’s not completely out of line to be making genocide claims. Because…I mean…what’s happening in Gaza is pretty standard genocidal behavior. But with the nazis being the standard bearer of what people see as genocide, people usually only express it as “this is the holocaust.”
And if you think it’s okay to do this to prisoners—I mean, you’re belittling abuse by making some flippant remark about keeping six people tied on their hands and knees in a four foot room while keeping them malnourished—then you’re only missing one aspect of why people are calling what’s happening a genocide. The other aspect of that is all of the rhetoric coming from Israel that shows the sort of “sub-human” othering of the Palestinian people along with the seemingly complete annihilation of this culture and people.
The “no mattresses” thing isn’t happening in a vacuum. It’s happening within the context of prisoner abuse. Which is happening within the context of and overwhelming force keeping a specific group penned into a smaller and smaller area, while they seemingly indiscriminately bomb a cultural group nearly out of existence, while there is system-wide othering of this group of people, and they’re spoken of as if they’re sub-human. And treated that way.
Keep them in shackles in very small cells with nothing, not even mattresses or food that is more than bread. This is subhuman treatment. A lot of prisons in other countries which is equally fucked up but that is not relevant for this conversation
Imagine yourself in the place of one of these men. How would you feel? Would that be acceptable to you? Would that be acceptable to your parents? Would it be acceptable to your spouse to not know where you are being held or why? Would it be acceptable for you as a lawyer to get no legal representation because a colonizer decided you are going to be tortured and humiliated for being X ethnicity?
No-one is debating that the IDF are way over the line, but the comment made was comparing a picture of a masked dude saying the prisoners should be made to sleep without a mattress to the industrialised murder of an entire ethnic group over the majority of a continent with the sole purpose of eradicating them.
lol people are debating that and this is an ethic cleansing of a region. they’d do the whole continent if they could they’ve literally said this
It’s one symptom we see in systems like Nazi Germany, and apartheid Israel. Hope that helps you understand what people are complaining about.
Yellow cheese and bread would be fine with me if I was in prison as an enemy combatant and suspected terrorist.
Such detention is usually indefinite, or at least usually lasts until whatever conflict ends, and POWs usually do not have a right to counsel.
Stress positions are torture and that’s not a subject I know much about from an international law standpoint. If it’s not illegal it should be.
But here you are once again without enough information to form a strong opinion, getting emotional, and reacting as if you have a real good idea of what’s happening in this video, which you do not. Are they stress positions that the inmates are forced to maintain for hours at a time, or were they told to get on the ground with their heads down and legs crossed so the cell could be opened safely for whoever that is touring the facility?
The video and audio are cut up and spliced. You have no idea what the speaker is talking about when he says “this is how it should be after October 7.” Does he mean they should be in prison? Does he mean they should not be moving or talking? Does he mean they should be eating only white bread and yellow cheese? Does he mean they should be in stress positions being tortured? Who knows? Not me, not you. And this is how we got here: people reacting to the worst half of a story and automatically assuming the worst possible explanation. That’s just not how I operate; I can see that I do not have enough information to have a strong opinion about this video or photos, so I don’t have one.
I think you shut off your humanity and regard for others in that sentence.
It’s amazing the denial mode you enter when it’s about Israel’s crystal clear genocide. Suddenly you can’t see amymore.
Jesus. Even the US gives “enemy combatants” MREs. They are done and out of the fight. There’s no reason to mistreat them at that point. It’s just cruelty for the sake of it and no it’s not legal.
I had to guard detainees before they were taken to the rear, and after searching them they keep their clothes and get an MRE and a bottle of water. You just sit there in silence then. Nothing else is required. The fact that they’re in an armed camp handcuffed and hooded is enough to keep them quiescent. And once they’re in a prison there’s certainly no reason to treat them worse than we did in the field.
If you’ve got them to spare, sure. I suppose you are right. Bread and cheese alone is no way to feed someone and has plenty of negative health consequence. I still don’t know enough about what the photo shows. How long does this diet persist for, is this a factor of intentional choice or is what they have extra in a warzone!
And to your second point, how about if the muckity mucks come for a tour and inspection, which is what this video seems to me to show, or if this is the intake holding or transport procedure?
I appreciate your perspective on this.
If Israel doesn’t have food to spare then there are far larger problems not being discussed. Also, if this is what their leadership expects then that’s a big problem.
Do you even know for sure these men are Hamss? Or do you just believe any “report”?
Asking since you seem to think criminals deserve no human rights. As a lawyer I’m sure this isn’t your professional opinion but somehow it’s good enough for Palestinians 🙂
And btw was America a democracy when women and black people couldn’t vote? This was a question on another thread about a similar topic
“I don’t agree with your comparison thus you must be ignorant.”
Sounds petty
Ok, I mean you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m just saying that what happens during a war is only clear after it’s ended. And certainly isn’t clear to keyboard warriors sitting on their couch in the states or Europe. There’s a very famous photo of German POWs being shown footage of a death camp prior to their release. The expressions on their faces show very clearly that they had no idea what was happening.
Similarly after this conflict is over, it is very possible that some extremely damming evidence will come to light. But until the war is over, you have to assume that most of what you see on both sides will be propaganda or taken out of context to promote a political ideology. And it’s a foolish comparison to make without more evidence than an out of context picture of an asshole prison guard.
Everyone else seems to see enough clearly damning evidence. But no problem, we can wait until the genocide is over and all Gazans are dead. 👍 That way you don’t have to believe us “keyboard warriors” sharing journalistic investigations and video footage of the mayhem.
Believe me I think Israel should pull out of Gaza and the settlers should leave the west bank. And I also believe that Palestine should be granted full independence according to 1967 borders. And I genuinely think that that would go a long way to establishing a climate of mutual hostility instead of straight up violence (I’m not naive enough to think that Israelis and Palestinians will ever be friends). Of course I shouldn’t be consulted, because I don’t live there and consulting Europeans about national borders in the middle east doesn’t seem to work. But I’m still not going to judge either side as being as bad as the Nazis, because I don’t have enough information to make that call.
I am 100% against the IDF entering Gaza and executing civilians or Israelis settling in the west bank. I am also 100% against kidnapping civilians and digging up water pipes to make unguided rockets to be fired indiscriminately into residential areas.
Fair enough, even though that’s not at all how you came off. But I understand.
I, on the other hand, have enough evidence. 75 years of evidence.
If you don’t mind me asking, where are you from ? (i notice that your user name is in Arabic)
I’m Palestinian Jordanian. My father is from Yaffa (Tel Aviv) and my mother is from a town nearby that was destroyed and turned into a settlement after the entire population was driven out after trying to defend themselves in 1947-48. My grandparents were in the Nakba as children and fled to Jordan, eventually receiving citizenship. My father grew up in a refugee camp in Jordan and my mother grew up in poverty as a result of the Nakba.
Usually when people ask I just say I’m Jordanian to avoid the clutter of explaining all of this but I thought you might like a full answer.
Dude. We have actual evidence, not circumstantial, not biased witnesses; of Israel inducing a famine, shooting unarmed civilians trying to cross their lines, killing reporters, and using doctors as human shields. (Who they then killed anyway).
This isn’t a wait until it’s over thing. This is an act now thing. For reference these guys already have more credible war crime allegations in 4 months than the US had in 20 years over a much larger area. It’s not rocket science.
Name checks out.
Excellent comment! I look forward to your thesis!
It must be so sad to see decades of fascist propaganda go to shit right before your very eyes, hasbara.
Sad for you, that is.
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No Reddit is just as bad. This is a problem with people substituting ideology for intelligence. People will believe anything if they like the people telling them to. The truth of the matter is that no-one who is not involved in the conflict actually knows about what’s actually going on there. The IDF obviously have an incentive to cover up war crimes, but at the same time Hamas (a group internationally recognized as a terorist organization) is the government in the Gaza Strip and all the statistics about civilian casualties are cited as coming from "the government of Palestine.
So again talking about the nazi Party and Israel in the same breath on the basis of a single translated image is fucking stupid.