• DMCMNFIBFFF@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      FWIW,

      wp:Science policy of the second Trump administration#Reactions and consequences

      By February 2025, the scale of funding in question began raising concerns of “brain drain”,[5] and 75% of scientists responding to a March survey by Nature were considering leaving the country.[73]

      By April, US scientists are reportedly looking for career opportunities abroad in greater numbers due to the administration’s slashing of science funding and workforce numbers, with a 32% increase in applications for jobs abroad and a 35% increase in US-based users browsing jobs abroad,[76] with economists considering which other countries might benefit most.[77]

      • SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca
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        6 months ago

        By slashing funding, 1100 funding announcements by the NCI for cancer research in 2023, 11 in 2026.

        Enjoy your ass cancer, MAGA.

  • Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca
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    6 months ago

    Yes, that little bump the Americans got after the 1940s because of some, er… “immigrants” has long since run out.

  • Sims@lemmy.ml
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    6 months ago

    China already did long time ago, and US were already finished before they put Trump on the spot.

    All the insanity from ‘Trump’, was planned by think tanks years before, so ALL lib/dem presidents just played the big think tank game just like Trump, and he is just showing the real face/intents of the US fascist dictatorship. None of them - no matter ‘side’ cared about causes or people, and all of them played the pre-set game dictated by the US Oligarchs.

    Current US behavior are just ‘mask off’ that shows who is really in charge in the US “Democracy” and what they think of anything else than keeping their property/power.

    • Tolc@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      Most boom was due to the cold war, US got rid of its only rival and went rogue and shot itself in the foot

    • krisevol@lemmus.org
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      6 months ago

      We have been running on old money for decades. We used China for our slave labor, and now they make the best stuff and don’t need us. That’s why the US is 70% service industry now. We are basically two rich trust fund babies jerking ourselves from off surrounded by slave labor, but eventually we run out of money. We are at the running out of money phase

      • AA5B@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Yeah but this is round two: science boogaloo. We have a government actively hostile to science and research, throwing away where we still had a leading position.

        In particular, we’re reversing the brain drain from China. If they’re becoming slightly less repressive and welcome science while we’re cutting research, cutting legal immigration, driving cuts by racism and judging research by whether the ai classifies it as “woke”, too many researchers who would have come here may no longer feel welcome

      • maplesaga@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        The US still holds the reserve currency, that they force other countries to use via military force. Which allows them to export their inflation, and to print money to build up the military they use to protect its usage.

        I think the problem is the population got too heavy into taking in debt via this mechanism, always asking for more and more tax cuts and more social programs, and China themselves stopped buying US treasuries in 2016. Then locking Russia out of US bonds further exacerbated the issue, as its no longer seen as a neutral asset, so bond yields rise as less people buy them.

        Then the tariffs and higher interest rates cause debt crisis in other countries by limiting their access to USD, which makes them attempt to move away, which is likely how gold prices nearly doubled in a single year. Its pretty wild whats happening.

  • WoodScientist@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    I mean, in the long run, this should be inevitable. The scientific revolution was a lightning bolt that happened to strike in Europe. And all western countries inherited that head start. But in the long run, we would expect all the world to converge to a similar science, and wealth level. And if China has triple the population of the US, why wouldn’t you expect them to dominate the US in raw scientists output? That should be the default condition.

    • liuther9@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      It is in no way related to population number. I bet there is high correlation with politics

      • WoodScientist@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        You pointed out an obvious and irrelevant fact but neglected my main point. This isn’t that complicated. If there are two countries with equal technology and education levels, the larger one will have a greater scientific output. All other things being equal, bigger countries should produce more science. And the things that prevent everything from being equal are largely historical aberrations that will decrease with time.

        Obviously, there today isn’t a direct correlation between population and scientific output. But that’s not what I argued. My assertion is that all other things being equal, a larger country will be able to produce more science. This shouldn’t be controversial. More people. More resources. More ability to employ scientists to do science.

        Yes, there isn’t a direct correlation today between population and scientific output, but different countries have radically different levels of development, wealth, and education. But these differences tend to average out over time as the world as a whole becomes more industrialized and developed. For most of human history, China was the leading scientific and technological power. And this was largely because they were simply had the largest population able to invent and discover things. For a time, small European countries had an advantage. But that’s just because Europe got lucky and happened to be where the scientific revolution happened to start. That was never a stable position that could be maintained forever. There is no timeline where tiny England continued to control the world forever.

        My point is not that, today, there is a direct correlation between scientific output and population size. You pointed out this obvious fact, but you missed the entire point of my comment. My point is that China overtaking the US in scientific output is not unexpected at all. It’s exactly what we would expect to happen. It’s a returning to the historical norm, the end of an anomalous period of history. A regression to the mean.

    • Taleya@aussie.zone
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      6 months ago

      scientific revolution

      You mean the rise of rationalism over religion in Europe that came out of the renaissance that only happened because they reopened trade routes and actually started paying attention to what had been going on in the islamic golden age?

      • WoodScientist@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Look, I get not being Euro centric, but you’re just looking for grievances. Performative wokism taken to the point of farce.

        The scientific revolution was a new invention. There was philosophy and rationalism before, but it’s incredibly reductive to just collapse the entire scientific method to be no different than the methods of inquiry that came before. It clearly had vastly different and more dramatic real-world consequences than the eras that came before. The Islamic Golden Age did not produce a self-reinforcing series of technological advancements that completely altered the lives of every living human being. The life of a peasant living in an Islamic country was virtually unchanged from before the Islamic Golden Age to after the Islamic Golden Age. I get rejecting imperialism. But you’re being so performatively anti-imperialist that it’s clouding your judgment.

        The scientific method was something that was invented in its modern form in a particular place and time. Yes, it had precursors, but so what? Humans evolved from creatures that are a fundamentally different species to ourselves. Every invention and discovery has precursors, but that doesn’t mean they’re the same thing. You have such an anti-West axe to grind that you can’t recognize a truly remarkable discovery, simply because it happened to be invented by Europeans.

        It was not normal for a tiny peninsula on the edge of the Eurasian landmass to, in a few centuries, go from being a global backwater to dominating the world. It’s a historical aberration. To explain it, you have two choices;

        1. Be a racist and conclude that there is something particularly different about European genetics that makes Europeans either particularly intelligent (positive racism) or particularly evil (negative racism) that allowed them to achieve this feat.

        2. Recognize that it was an accident of history and that a uniquely powerful discovery/invention, the modern scientific method, happened to be invented in Europe.

        Personally, I don’t like Eugenics-based explanations. Maybe you do. But I reject racism, even for the sake of anti-imperialism. Maybe you think Europeans are just genetically evil geniuses. But my default assumption is that everyone is the same, and Europe just happened to roll a natural 20 when it came to where the scientific revolution would happen.

        Sure, you can pretend that it was no different from other methods of rational inquiry that came before. But then you have to explain why the modern scientific method produced a knowledge explosion while previous methods didn’t.

        • Taleya@aussie.zone
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          6 months ago

          Performative wokism taken to the point of farce.

          Oh you silly little biscuit.

          Western science never formed in a vacuum. It’s always been a continuance of knowledge. Imperialism plays a huge part, because a stable empire with security tends to rise the life of its citizens and result in a greater scholarly presence, but scientific advancement and knowledge is not some strange, magical thing that only appeared in one place at one time due to magical butt fairies or whatever the hell else you’re ascribing. It’s standing on the shoulders of the ones who came before you, who stand on the shoulders of those before them.

          It was not normal for a tiny peninsula on the edge of the Eurasian landmass to, in a few centuries, go from being a global backwater to dominating the world

          It absolutely is if you understand your history. That pissy little kingdom around the Palatine hill did exactly that. That tiny spit at Aigai surrounded by the big boys. And also I think you’re conflating “scientific revolution” with shipbuilding and trade there bud.

    • Soup@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      Or, to return to reality for a moment, China has invested in new technologies and education for the prupose of having new technologies and an educated population while the US has long engaged in innovation only if it will make money(while actively stifling new things if it means competition) and in dumbing down its own population so that they’re easier to control. The US exists as a machine to enrich, in the short-term, a handful of people and anything that does not work to that end is seen as a waste. No public infrastructure, no investing in science for advancement’s sake, no education poor people, no nothing.

      The US has failed because of deliberate effort by itself to shoot its own feet and legs before diving head-first into an intellectual wood-chipper. It is 100% voluntary and you cannot hide behind “it must’ve been inevitable!”.

  • OccamsRazer@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    You can’t compete with a nation that doesn’t feel bad about exploitation of workers. If the workers cooperate then you can get a crazy amount of productivity out of them. The united states is losing its power because we aren’t willing to work as we used to. It’s a tradeoff, but I’m fine with it except that I’m not sure I trust China/Xi Jinping as the world’s superpower. He eliminated term limits when he took power, and I’m sure has no intention of going anywhere for a long time. Everyone so busy celebrating Trump looking bad, but forgetting that it could be and will be a lot worse for the western world under a Chinese dictator.

    • 3abas@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      What a stupid take! Americans are working longer and harder for less pay and disappearing benefits, with a bleak future and risk of financial ruin of you get sick or terminated.

      China is funding research universities and subsidizing Chinese students, while the US is killing scholarships and starting fights with top universities over politics.

      • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
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        6 months ago

        Americans are working longer and harder for less pay and disappearing benefits, with a bleak future and risk of financial ruin of you get sick or terminated.

        I mean you’re right and that’s bad; I’m just pointing out that China has had gruesome 996 working weeks (72 hours/week) for decades IIRC and i’m not sure if chinese people work that much voluntarily or involuntarily.

    • isles@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      Wait, you claim the US feels bad about the exploitation of workers? That the workers productivity hasn’t skyrocketed while wages are stagnant?

      • HugeNerd@lemmy.ca
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        6 months ago

        Oh let him have his little China meltdown, he’s got football to watch Monday.

    • echindod@programming.dev
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      6 months ago

      The point of the article is that of you stop investing in science, you are going to fall behind in science.

    • merdaverse@lemmy.zip
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      6 months ago

      “The US exploits its workers just as much, but at least it feels very sorry about it!”

  • MrMakabar@slrpnk.net
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    6 months ago

    It is not just cutting research funding, but also making migrating to the US much much harder. The US has amazing pay for the absolute top researchers, which makes it attractive for even migrants from other developed countries. However life in most other countries is better then one of the new migrant concentration camps the US is building with ICE.

    Probably the Anglosphere apart from the US and then other rich developed countries will benefit fro this the most. They all have somewhat working migration systems in place to attract talent. China so far lacks that, but they probably set one up soon.

      • tempest@lemmy.ca
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        6 months ago

        It’s truely a team effort the Republicans and Democrats are the ratchet effect manifested.

        The FPTP system ensures you will only get those two choices so if you want to effect change its probably easiest to do it at the primary level.

        People always say ‘progressives can’t get elected nationally’ or whatever forgetting FPTP ensures things will swap back (under the assumption that one side doesn’t flip fascist before that happens, big assumption in this climate I know) because eventually people will tire of the person in power and either vote for ‘change’ or stay home.