It’s exactly as legal or illegal as it was when Obama was doing it.
If they don’t respect the 4th amendment they get the second amendment
The Constitution is a piece of paper with words on it that no one pays attention to any longer.
Just when these American citizens needed their rights the most…their government took them away. and rights aren’t rights if someone can take em away. They’re priveledges. That’s all we’ve ever had in this country is a bill of TEMPORARY priviledges; and if you read the news, even badly, you know the list get’s shorter, and shorter, and shorter.
There’s a longer version of this great routine by George Carlin, as well as recordings from live shows. I highly recommend reading the whole thing - it helps put a lot of this into perspective.
It doesn’t matter what the constitution says when the government chooses to ignore it.
When the social contract is null, then all the gloves must come off.
They’re all above the law. That’s how. Democracy and law and order are gone.
US voted to become a fascist dictatorship under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 and is now enjoying its transition.
Do you accuse Germany in its entirety of being nazis in the 1940’s? Were there no innocent people? Did the Jews support hitler?
What about Russia? Is every Russian citizen in total support of the genocide in Ukraine?
No. The US did not vote for this. A portion of the population of the US are fascists traitors to democracy, THEY voted for this. So stop with the ignorant blanket statements and learn how to have a nuanced understanding of the world you live in.
You’d be surprised. When the “special military operation” kicked off, most of the internet decided that every Russian is evil.
You can see it in the EU’s visa policies, as well — it’s very difficult for Russian expats to find a place that will welcome them, even harder for them to find a bank that will hold their money.
This is a nontrivial legal question.
Of course there needs to be a way for government agents to enforce immigration laws (like all other laws) and also enter private places for that purpose. You don’t have an automatic right to tell them to piss off because you don’t like certain laws being enforced.
What kind of warrant or situation they need exactly, courts may already have decided, or will still decide. It’s obviously legal for government agents to enter homes with certain warrants, and sometimes without warrants; whether the exact thing the linked article is about will or will not be found constitutional, no one here can ELI5 to you with any certainty.
Thanks for the voice of reason on the platform of outrage
You sound like you’re not from the US.
In the US, it is not a crime to tell police to piss off.
It isn’t legal. And they haven’t changed the law. It’s just now their policy to ignore the law.
Right now they’re trying to “shock and awe” everyone into submission and compliance before the law catches up with them.
What do you want to bet at some point when ICE and Miller go too far that whistleblowers inside ICE dig up the lists of the recent hires and slip them off to the various states that they are active in, for the states to bring charges?
Good gravy, if I was working in an ICE office, you BET that surrpetitiously making backups of all the HR files documenting which people are going where, would be my main agenda.
Trump can pardon all he wants, but the states can still make these goose-stepping fuckers pay…
What do you want to bet at some point when ICE and Miller go too far that whistleblowers inside ICE dig up the lists of the recent hires and slip them off to the various states that they are active in, for the states to bring charges?
A short while back they murdered an innocent civilian by shooting her in the face and just recently kidnapped a 5 year old child.
If neither of those was “too far” then there is no “too far” for them. There will be no whistle blowers. ICE is evil.
Them rounding up people and denying them their fundamental rights was too far for me. I’ve tried organizing locally, with my friends, etc. to try and form a defensive community. No one seemed at all concerned. As well ICE isn’t openly operating in my area because Trump has basically admitted he’s doing this to blue states and cities. Mine is ruby red.
There have already been whistleblowers.
A lot of people who could do more are still doing the math between being complicit in this and ruining their lives, which is a real possibility if they act before securing some kind of support from the opposition or a resistance movement gets more organized. They’ll have to be convinced the risk is worth it and action could result real change before they go for it.
The problem isn’t necessarily finding people opposed to what’s happening, but making them believe that change can happen and they’ll be alright in the end if they join the resistance.
I wouldn’t discount the possibility of whistleblowers. Even in Nazi Germany there were people who needed time to follow their conscience - those who only comply out of fear of personal consequences might still find the courage to do what is right.
I’m thinking it’s likely to happen once a point has been reached that the Trump Administration is distracted and/or weak enough that a whistleblower can come forwards and do so without ending up in a Federal prison. It’s not going to happen anytime soon, but once the cracks in the administration get too large to paint over…
They are 100% going to leave these morons holding the bag. They are pulling shit like SHOWING them a hard copy of these orders and then keeping it so there is zero evidence linking their conduct back to their leadership. The buck stops with the dumbasses on the ground.
Dumbasses Indeed…
https://www.wired.com/story/ice-agents-are-doxing-themselves/
Man, “secret police” went from hyperbole to reality REALLY fucking fast.
There was just a leak of 4500 ICE agents.
It says ICE agents are allowed to forcibly enter a person’s home using an administrative warrant if a judge has issued a “final order of removal.” Administrative warrants permit officers and agents to make arrests and are different from judicial warrants, which judges or magistrates sign allowing entry into homes.
It’s basically a new legal theory (like the bush torture memos you can just make them up) and they’re claiming the preexisting administrative warrant is good enough
The article says it’s also not a search warrant, which backs up their claim saying they can enter because they aren’t searching.
Which is stupid.
But if it’s not a search warrant, and they start doing this, I wonder if there’s some way to protect yourself by requiring finding you in the house to constitute a search?
Like what if you attached a bookshelf to your bedroom door. And you had to move a book to access the handle?
That’s a search?
Maybe that’s a way to try to continue legally protecting yourself within their illegal entry? Or something like that anyway.
They’re already ignoring law. Stop looking for loopholes and start looking for safe shooting positions.
Pretty sure a ‘hidden’ room is a good spot to shoot from if that’s the decision you’re going to make.
It will make it more obvious they are about to enter it somehow.
edit: Also boobytraps would probably be effective at that point as well.
Just remember, an annoyed invader that has no external challenge can just set your house on fire and smoke you out, boobytraps or no.
You think ICE is going to go as far as lighting houses on fire to get someone to exit?
Not necessarily ICE, but 1. I wouldn’t put it past them. and 2. If even a lame-ass civil war largely in name only erupts, you bet your ass fascist pieces of shit would torch someone’s house before they put themselves in actual proved danger.
Problem with that idea is that they don’t actually care about any of the technicalities one way or the other, they just tossed out a somewhat plausible sounding “justification” to have something to point to. Their idiots will believe the justification regardless, and everyone else’s time can be wasted arguing about it.
You can tell them to piss off but they can beat and/or kill you and get away with it so words arent really gonna have much stopping power in this case.
We live in a society where might = right. If you have the firepower or other means to stop them from entering your private space then you have the right to do so.
You don’t really have the right to shoot anybody. (Depends on the state) But then you’d be accused of shooting a federal officer. Do you realy want that?
Yes i would absolutely prefer to die on my feet then live on my knees.
Most states, even ones with a duty to retreat, will still allow for using lethal force against home invaders, and even if not good luck finding a jury to convict someone on that kind of an incident.
You may not find a jury, but they have guns too
Nobody wants that, but unless you’re a bootlicker, you’re not going to let thugs barge into your home. I know I won’t, but I’m also going to do everything in my power to not let them in to begin with. Shooting intruders is the last resort. They’re no different than home invaders in my eyes.
The mere threat of returned violence seems to work in dissuading the ICE agents from trying anything. Hence them making themselves scarce a few days ago when they saw a gentleman open carrying a semi-automatic (though unloaded) rifle.
Nice
Carrying it unloaded is stupid. They won’t wait to see if you have ammo before lighting you up if it came to it. Why leave yourself actually defenseless and yet a far more obvious target?
No one is going to sympathise with your obituary. “Well he looked like a deadly threat, which cops have been legally allowed to murder for decades, but he wasn’t actually a threat!”
“Fucking moron” would be the common reaction.
While ICE agents are pathetic cowards, pathetic cowards have murdered many, many people throughout history. Especially ones that look like a valid threat.
He’s not doing whatever he can to not get murdered. He’s doing whatever he can to expose ICE’s hypocrisy and prove that they are the lawless murderers.
By not loading his weapon he has made it clear that there is no circumstance in which he would take another’s life. Not even to defend his own.
Is he putting himself at grave risk? Yes. Absolutely.
Is there a way to accomplish the same thing without risk? No.
That man is a definitional hero.
Meh, a hero needs to be inarguably good at their intended goal. Anyone who doesn’t already agree with him is going to call him a dumbass, and rightfully so.
Do not appear to be a threat while not actually being a threat. Period. It’s almost as bad as being in danger while having zero defense.
You wouldn’t celebrate someone taking a walk in the woods with an empty bear mace can. This guy is doing the same thing: Going in to danger against wild animals with no actual defense.
Bears are not monsters, and there are much better ways of mitigating their threat. ICE and Donald cannot be mitigated. They must be met with overwhelming force. If you don’t have the option of overwhelming force, resort to subterfuge (if you are a hero).
This is a question of what happens during an attack. Not who is more likely to attack. For a bear, bear mace is an excellent choice. For ICE, if you already have a fucking gun, it being loaded is a first fucking step to that gun being useful at all.
If you see me out packing protecting my neighborhood, know that my rifle is NOT unloaded, that 40-round mag is full and ready to unleash hell, and I’ve got 4 more of them ready to go.
Depends on your alternatives I suppose. If your options are: “Go to a concentration camp without a name in some other country” or “get prosecuted for shooting the guy who was going to send you there and maybe end up in regular prison” or “die trying”, then maybe its not so clear.
Most gun owners would prefer this to being whisked away to a mystery camp, yes.
Yeah… I get it
The thing is, as a straight white middle-aged natural born citizen, there’s only one reason for the feds to ever kick in my door, and if that happens my life as a free man is over anyway. You fucking bet I’m taking as many of them with me as possible.
When they come for your guns they will absolutely have a response to this. They know many people would rather die. They will kill you no matter what, but now what if they punish your family? What if they seize all of your assets and those of your nearest family? What if they financially ruin your loved ones after you die? Are you going to protect your weapons at the risk of hurting those you love? I’ll bet most don’t. What if they threaten to arrest your parents and send them to a labor camp?
When “they” are no longer subject to being voted out of office there is no longer any reason not to use maximum force to compel compliance for anything. They are showing us what they will do to those they deem to have no constitutional rights. Next anyone who protests will be labeled a terrorist and arrested. Anyone who fails to comply will be a terrorist. Anyone who is registered Democrat will be classified as an enemy of the state.
You will be bent into submission because you have weaknesses that they do not. Rattle your cage all you want. Dictators ALWAYS disarm the population.
Well then, guess you should just keep your head down and submit. All this “2nd amendment” and “don’t tread on me” talk was nothing but bluster. Maybe someone else will come invade the US to introduce democracy for you.
You’re still not getting it. This is a US government coup. They’re not following laws or the Constitution because they arent the US government. It’s the fucking Confederacy again.
Correct, so people need to stop expecting the rule of law to protect them and need to start protecting themselves.
Coward logic
It was the survivors who rebuilt Germany.
lol. lmao
There is an Instagram trend (I’m told, I don’t browse) of people showing off the #nastiestangle
Spots in their homes or apartments they can get clean shots off at the door while remaining virtually invisible or well protected.
Please, for the love of god, do not post anything even remotely related to this on social media tied to you publicly. Your name, email, phone number, address, etc. will all be collected and recorded for when someone drops the charade and goes after dissidents.
I vaguely remember a story of a housecleaner getting shot for going to the wrong address and the shooter not even being charged because “I was scared” is a valid reason for killing someone ringing your doorbell in some states (sorry don’t remember the source). That sounds like a right to shoot anybody.
Point of order, you will be accused posthumously of shooting a federal officer. You will not survive the exchange.
That’s not always true. Cops are notoriously bad shots and these ice agents are no better.
Just remember that most walls in modern american homes are made of nothing much stronger than plywood. In any situation you should return fire from good cover to try and avoid becoming a body.
There is no safe place to hide in a modern american home. The 2 most common rounds 9mm and NATO 5.56 will easily go through 5 or 6 layers of sheetrock or a piece of plywood and keep on going.
Do you want to risk it when you’re a father and want your kids to grow up with a dad? Or do you want to risk a stray bullet hitting a neighbor? Or do you want to just get arrested and probably released at some point with a really good case against the government that didn’t uphold the constitution?
I mean, you can weigh the pros and the cons yourself.
I was hardly suggesting that anyone shoot at ICE. I was pointing out that doing so would get you killed.
Legal Answer
The Fourth Amendment specifically says the “right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated” without a warrant showing probable cause and due process. It is settled law in the court system that this means a judicially-reviewed and -signed warrant is required to enter a home.
Basically, the Trump administration issued a May 12, 2025 DHS memo (signed by Todd Lyons) saying that no, the “warrant” and “due process” clause is satisfied if the DHS issues its own warrant.
This obviously violates the constitution because then judicial branch is meant to check the executive branch via review of executive action. DHS signing their own warrants means they are acting with inherent biased towards their own personnel, so there is no meaningful due process. It’s literally the law enforcement arm also being the judge.
A more detailed legal answer to your question is here: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/can-ice-enter-a-home-to-make-an-arrest-with-only-an-administrative-warrant , and it also links to the whistleblower complaint, which itself has the DHS May 12, 2025 memo as Exhibit 1 (page 17 of the file).
The DHS memo doesn’t appear to cite any actual case law (except a footnote that references a Central District of California case that “judicial” warrants are required in that jurisdiction, tellingly), but the link above notes the law is so clear that, to find an explanation, it theorizes that they are relying on dicta (non-binding, non-precedential discussion) in a court opinion from a 1960 case, that suggests (but again, doesn’t legally bind) administrative warrants could be considered. That dicta doesn’t hold they are valid, and has been contradicted by the Supreme Court multiple times since 1960.
Practical Answer
In short, the Trump administration likely knows this is a completely unconstitutional position. However, they also know it takes time for court challenges to force them to take any action (violate the constitution->victims possibly find counsel->file papers->trial court delays->trial->multiple appeals->Supreme Court).
Therefore, they are openly violating the law. We don’t know their goals, but it seems obvious that Trump and his chief advisor, Stephen Miller are looking for an excuse to declare martial law. By illegally killing, kidnapping and abusing American citizens and residents, they assume the backlash will give them an excuse.
If it doesn’t, they will continue and assume that they will either be saved by the extremely right-leaning Supreme Court, or if not, will still have normalized a US gestapo acting with impunity for enough time to scare into silence any meaningful criticism, stop elections, or will continue simply “comply” with the decision two+ years from now continuing the process with minor changes to the policy that remain unconstitutional but restart the court process.
That’s a well-written explanation, thank you, and it’s the Trump administration’s game plan on everything.
Pick a policy, any policy, from DOGE to tariffs to blocking funding on a whim, whatever — it’s illegal, unconstitutional, or both, but that doesn’t matter. If a court blocks them, it’ll take months and they’ll appeal.
Meanwhile the daily damage is done, and it’s permanent. If/when Democrats are again in charge, being Democrats, they’ll tinker with the mechanisms a little and pose for smiling pictures, but we’ll never see US AID again, and ICE’s ginormous budgets will be the norm, etc.
The Constitution also gives Congress the right to a constitutional convention. This means that it can be possible for the US to become socialist by way of constitutional reform. Seriously!
Laws are threats made by the dominant socioeconomic ethnic power in a given nation, it’s just a promise of violence enacted with the police acting as an occupying army.
And if the police don’t enforce those threats, they have no meaning. The police are not enforcing the laws that ICE is breaking, and therefore what they’re doing is effectively legal.
As Pompey said, “Cease quoting laws to us that have swords.”
The rule of law has ceased to exist in the US. It has been replaced by the rule of power.
You either get used to no longer have rights, or you can start to get them back.
Yup.
Those of us with functional brains kept telling everyone else without that it can and will happen here. They didn’t think so.
Now it’s happening here.
It’s a slow boil, so people will keep denying. But hey, women don’t have the same rights they had a few years ago. Now due process is gone. What’s next?
Now to be precise those women’s rights were taken away legally as they were not codified anywhere in a lasting manner.
Well yeah.
A lot of what the Nazis did was legal, too.
Particularly at the beginning when they started passing laws to persecute Jews and other minorities. All done legally.
Like when the U.S. didn’t let women or blacks vote or own land. All legal.
