They always were.
Please be parody please be parody
It’s parody now but I do believe very soon a portion of the country will be perfectly ok with this being fact.
if he gets a third term this will be a sticker on people’s cars
At the heart of the “we mustn’t be distracted away from the Epstein scandal” crowd is the naive belief that we have simply yet to find the perfect argument that, when shown to the frothing genocidal fascists, will somehow magically turn them 180 degrees and renounce american fascism.
It is this supremely liberal idea that you can wriggle yourself out of fascism if you find the right facts and logic, the most epic slam, the most cutting late night TV monologue, to show a right winger and have them renounce fascism. It’s based in the incorrect idea that the wheel of history turns via ideas. The idea that the marketplace of ideas, in combination with certain “Great Men”, are the ultimate arbiters of history.
Fascism doesn’t work like that. You could drop 4k footage of Trump committing the acts, and nothing would change. If you want to halt fascism, you’ve either got to squash it with guns and tanks, or you give people healthcare, education, retirement, and socialization.
Pretty much. Like I said elsewhere, fascists only pay attention to Epstein when they’re upset about other things, with it merely being a conduit to express general dissatisfaction that they otherwise wouldn’t admit. Facts aren’t the important part for fascists; it’s all emotional.
fascists only pay attention to Epstein when they’re upset about other things, with it merely being a conduit to express general dissatisfaction that they otherwise wouldn’t admit
Very well put
At the heart of the “we mustn’t be distracted away from the Epstein scandal” crowd is the naive belief that we have simply yet to find the perfect argument that, when shown to the frothing genocidal fascists, will somehow magically turn them 180 degrees and renounce american fascism.
I see it exactly the opposite. The focus on the Epstein files feels much more like an admission that they won’t listen to rational, logical arguments, and replacing those efforts with rhetorical tactics that do seem to be effective; namely, moralistic outrage.
We’ve seen that some of his base does respond to the Epstein fishiness. It’s driving a wedge between subsets of his base, and I personally know several former MAGAs that have really soured on Trump over it.
I was agreeing with your argument but you seem to come to the opposite conclusion as me.
These fools already vote against their own interests. They had pensions, union jobs, government funded infrastructure, benefits. They voted to give all of that away and embrace fascism because they were emotionally manipulated to do so. You can give a Truml voter all of the facts you want: climate change, vaccines, immigration, taxes. They aren’t moved by any of that. The people who would be moved by that already know better and never would have supported Trump in the first place. I understand a lot of people here fall into that category, but we must be careful not to fall into an echo chamber and ignore just how dumb and irrational huge swathes of Americans are because that’s how we got into this mess.
If you want to dislodge Trump’s current supporters, you need to attack their emotions. Bombing thousands of Muslim kids in the middle east doesn’t move the needle, but a dozen or so good white Christian girls who had their precious virginity stolen from them? (I don’t mean to belittle the suffering of the victims, just to illustrate that this appeals to mysoginists and Christian nationalists). That gets clicks, that drives outrage.
Fascists build their own reality and that is only reinforced by any attempt to “debate” them.
i think there’s also this small “hey, this is the one thing that everyone agrees about” element to it
the naive belief that we have simply yet to find the perfect argument that, when shown to the frothing genocidal fascists, will somehow magically turn them 180 degrees and renounce american fascism.
This is also why the left infights so much, they are so desperate to have intellectual fights and showcase their logic and reason in a way that matters that all you can really do with that is just pick at other leftist’s takes and beliefs.
We probably could have made a lot better progress in effecting change in our country if we all digested the reality a lot sooner that we are NOT arguing our way to a better outcome, that all we could really hope to do is change narratives and change the way the right feels about topics.
Yeah. The right isn’t arguing anymore either and I think it’s why the liberals are so quick to punch left. Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson falloff being the most obvious examples. They don’t care anymore and the liberals are trying to find someone to “debate”. The right has largely “won”. The “marketplace of ideas” does not result in the most just and good ideas winning. They are having a hard time handling this.
So they’re lost. They don’t know what to do but discuss ideas and think that that is the only thing that leads to change.
It’s a perfect example of why you need to understand dialectical materialism. If all you have is ideas you’ll be holding onto those ideas and “winning” your way all the way to the gas chambers. But they continue to criticize any material effort to resist fascist that threatens the existing systems they think will somehow shift back. They will not shift back again. “The marketplace of ideas” is dead and it was never a means of progress in the first place.
Hundreds of people ice kidnapped have disappeared
EXACTLY!!!
I get the sentiment, but it is the case that MAGA is very happy about the stripping of civil rights (for others) and indifferent to supportive on the War on Gaza.
But they are (used to be?) not indifferent to powerful pedophiles running the country. If you want the slaughter to end, if you want civil rights restored, this is the issue that makes it happen.
But they are (used to be?) not indifferent to powerful pedophiles running the country
Hate to break it to you, but they are completely indifferent to that, as long as it is their pedophiles running the country. Are people new here? Are you really so oblivious as to how fascists words work that you naively take them upon it?
My MAGA father brought up the Epstein files to me last time we had a coherent discussion. He did feel the need to mention Bill Clinton was in them, but it was clear that cracks had formed.
We need to hammer President Pedophile with the Epstein files non-stop.
It’s not the only issue, and it horrifyingly isn’t even the worst issue, but if it can serve as the thin edge of the wedge, it’s important to not let up.
If that works in your specific situation, then great. Keep doing it.
But I don’t think it’s a one size fits all solution
I did not make it clear how significant this is.
If you look at the bookshelves in my parents’ house, you’ll see swastikas staring back at you.
It doesn’t have to be a one size fits all situation. However, if it erodes support among the deeply committed, most fascist faithful, there’s a chance that this doesn’t have to end with EVERYONE dying.
At best, it was a way for them to express frustrations using language they understand. However, what’s actually driving their anger is usually the economy, so it isn’t Epstein that actually makes the difference. It’s also a moot point anyways because nothing will restore rights short of Trump dying, as he’s never gonna leave office before that happens.
What this meme is about is people callously acting like Epstein is the only issue that matters, bringing it up when something genuinely terrible happens. It treats these issues like they don’t matter, like the problem with the GOP is nothing more than political team sports. It makes my blood boil when lives are genuinely being ruined and all some people care about is the well established fact that he’s a pedophile.
People can complain about Epstein, but that need to stop bringing it up in unrelated conversations about Trump.
I agree with you that the Epstein case is relatively small compared to the millions of people who Trump is causing to suffer. However, the Epstein files also seem to be the first thing that cracked his base of political support. It is a weakness that anyone against Trump should exploit, not because it’s the most important issue, but because it’s the one that is most likely to remove him from power.
Deporting immigrants, locking up trans people, outlawing abortion, destroying free speech and political opposition, supporting genocide… These are all things that his base WANTS. They rejoice in the suffering of the “other”. They care about the economy too, but they’re told dumb to realize that Trump is the problem.
That’s all well and good, but like I said, keep it the fuck out of serious conversation, especially on here. There aren’t gonna be many Trumpers on this platform, as leftists and queer people are such a major population that they’d struggle to tolerate it. At most there are very mild conservatives who are usually not beyond reaching with actual arguments. I would get this argument more if we were on a corpo platform, but on this one you’re just distracting from issues we actually care about.
edit: spelling
You’re making a lot of broad assumptions about audiences. And “serious conversation”… My sibling in Satan this is c/politicalmemes.
These memes don’t just stay on Lemmy either. They get reposted all across the internet, printed on stickers and posters and t-shirts. The UK just jailed journalists last week for the terrible crime of projecting a picture of Trump and Epstein together on a building during Trump’s visit. It’s very much a topical issue that is heavily tied to broader issues of free speech and political corruption. And it’s not just about Trump- how many other powerful people are in those files that faced no consequences? This isn’t distracting from other issues- it’s a part of them. All of these other issues seem to always track back to billionaires promoting horrible inhuman behavior and fascism, so I don’t see how the Epstein files are distracting from anything.
I’m also critical of Biden and Garland for not doing more with this when they were in power. This isn’t
It doesn’t just happen here genius. I’ve seen such reaction images on news stories about the administration looking to label antifa as terrorists. This is a seriously scary move that will be used to silence any dissent, but apparently it’s all a fucking distraction from well established pedophilia by a man above the law.
I really I shouldn’t be surprised by the reaction here. If we’re talking about audience, I know a lot of people here are the ones who need to see this meme.
It doesn’t really matter where it is
The thing I hate most about Lemmy is what a fucking circlejerk it is.
I know people are gonna read this and make deeply frowny faces and try to poke me with their little arrows but we have to get better about identifying what a fucking bubble we all fall into.
These kinds of sites are the same as what the right uses, but the left gets far less out of them for affecting change and good outcomes. They’re feed-troughs to get people gathered together, getting their feelings out of their system, without actually going out and challenging power and facing the opposition. It’s like when you have a great idea for a novel and you tell your bored friends all about it and that gets the inspiration out of your system so you never pursue it.
It is true that Lemmy sucks for having substantial reach. If I wanted to reach the largest possible audience for advocacy’s sake, I would use corpo socials. They optimize for the largest reach because that’s where they make money, so it’s hard for a non profit effort to compete.
However, that’s not why I use Lemmy. I don’t use it for building a mass movement, but for building community free of corporate interference. A place where we don’t have fascists debating the existence of trans people. This isn’t a town square, but a collection of punk clubs that kick Nazis out without needing to appeal to some landlord.
Also, in case you haven’t noticed, the Overton Window is being legally pushed to the right by the largest English speaking government in the world. There is no freedom of speech or dissent, and corporate media will fully cooperate with the government in their efforts to ban any left wing organizing. There is no marketplace of ideas to debate in on those platforms, as even when there wasn’t open fascism like now, the right were always given more leeway to be radical. Pre musk Twitter protected fascist accounts like Libs of Tik Tok while those accounts now run both the government and the companies.
At least here we can always rebuild if instances get censored. At least here we can be more than censored opposition.
Epstein files also seem to be the first thing that cracked his base of political support.
We all need to get a lot better about actually visiting and reading right-wing websites and groups. Even if they are painfully stupid and infuriating, we have to know the reality of what they think and feel.
This is because for every huge story that breaks, the media splits it into two angles. One set of headlines pandering to the right, and another pandering to the left.
Because of this, Epstein had a far smaller long-term impact on the right than we think. They have already moved on, every bit of “outrage” was performative and lip-service to the few right-wingers who want to feel intellectually honest. (Very few of them.)
They are celebrating in the streets right now, they feel they are winning and they don’t actually care about child sex trafficking, largely most of them attached to that cause because it feels objectively good and they all want to be the “good guys.” That storyline is over, they’ve moved on to new storylines.
Have you actually talked to any of them?
I’ve seen a lot of houses in my city that I noted as having Trump flags have taken them down this summer. My Republican family members, and those of my friends, certainly aren’t sharing that sense of victory you’re claiming to see. They remember that Trump promised to release the files and haven’t. They’re all riled up ready to prosecute Bill Clinton and wondering why Trump has gone soft.
And literally just last week the UK arrested 2 men for projecting a picture of Trump and Epstein together during his visit, which has brought a ton more attention to the story. It’s not going away just because you seem to want it to.
No, I’m trans and they probably won’t even talk to me unless I put great effort into passing perfectly as cis. Even then, if I ever slip up it’s over. I’m also brown which means some people will see me as untrustworthy no matter what I do.
It’s not going away just because you seem to want it to.
I thought you had a good counterpoint up until you tried to be smug edgy dude. Fuck off, understand what’s at stake and why people like myself are worried that the left is going to get stuck spinning it’s wheels in a procedural issue while we’re literally losing the constitution. You can care about Epstein and keep pushing on it, I don’t give a fuck, just stop calling everything else major that happens a “distraction” like it doesn’t matter.
I didn’t call anything a distraction, and I doubt you throwing out insults or telling me to “fuck off” is going to change anyone’s mind but okay. Your own comments are full of smug jokes that I chuckled without needing to personally attack you over.
I have yet to see any indication that a single person is trying to paint Gaza as a distraction from the Epstein files . This post seems pretty fishy to me.
Who said Gaza specifically? Do I need to provide an example of that in particular for you to believe it’s a problem, or is the meme here from a day ago about Jimmy Kimmel not proof enough?
Okay so what does “bombing civilians” refer to then? Also, I don’t know what meme you’re talking about, but I’m not sure a single post/meme would prove your point.
I was talking about the Venezuelans murdered in international waters. When the war was escalating people called it a distraction, even though it’s predictably led to violent acts of terror in Latin America. I do not have that saved, but I do have an instance of people talking about Epstein in another comm.
OK, so I did see posts about the Venezuelans, but not that it was a “distraction”. The two linked examples you provided here seem like entirely fair to think may be intended as distractions. When the president is an actual pedophile, why wouldn’t he do insane shit to distract from that fact? Things like this can both definitely be distractions and also expressions of power meant to tamp down criticism of the administration.
If you think both of those examples are fair and valid, we will never bridge this gap. Just know that it’s very upsetting when you elevate this issue above others, so don’t be surprised when you face pushback.
It is quite literally every single article involving Trump doing something awful that isn’t related to Epstein.
It has maybe slowed down a bit in the past week or so, but it’s still everywhere. You need to pay attention more if you’re truly not seeing it.
People have said the charlie kirk shooting was a distraction.
People have said that Israel announcing plans to occupy gaza were a distraction.
People have said that Beazelel (I don’t respect him enough to spell his name right) Smotrich announcing he wants to annex the west bank is a distraction.
A comment I made elsewhere about people bringing up Epstein:
Just something to think about here - republicans all seem pretty gung-ho on the fascism, and they have control of everything right now. Do you think pointing it out will change republican minds? Those in office and those who are the voters backing them up.
Personally, I don’t see that happening. You’ll get some halfhearted dissent here and there, but I think thats mostly cover.
So, what would cause a major split or shift? I think solid confirmation of Trump making use of Epstein’s ‘services’ could do that. Maybe it won’t, I can’t predict the future (obviously). It seems much more likely than pointing out how rights are being stripped away (again and again), because they haven’t cared about our rights yet.
That doesn’t mean I think we should ignore what’s happening, just that I think there is substantial value in making sure the Epstein files don’t just disappear. If there wasn’t, I don’t think they would be trying so hard to deflect/ignore/cover up anything related to it.
There are some people who tall about the economy, but let’s be honest there too - the wealthy will use a bad economy to buy things up, meanwhile the soybean farmers praying (literally) to Trump think he has some grand plan and this hurt is temporary.
Its the same with taking away peoples rights to be who they are, or to even speak about who they are - they agree with it because its hurting the people they want it to. They won’t see the hypocrisy.
If trump supporters can see Trump as a child abuser and liar, then maybe they’ll see he was lying about other things too. Maybe they’ll recognize that the people who were chest thumping about Epstein files that suddenly went quiet - the ones that fill up their Facebook feed and their alt right TV network - are also liars and manipulators.
Guaranteed? No. But a realistic approach thats gained traction.
I’m still very skeptical about the approach because Trump’s friendship with Epstein has been well known, while conservatives advocating child marriages never seemed to dissuade the base much in the past. However, I’m not asking people to stop talking about, I’m asking that it not be brought up when serious shit is going down. It’s so fucked up.
The only thing about it now is how hard he is falling against releasing anything - which makes it seem like there is enough to really cause problems.
And I get it on some posts, its pretty excessive to bring up in some situations.
Is “forget about the Epstein files, they don’t matter” the new “dont vote for Harris, she supports genocide”?
totally. the Epstein files is our bridge to the people who don’t think all the extrajudicial violence is real, or worse, they think it’s thwarting sex traffickers in league with Epstein and his associates rather than being enacted by a main associate.
we have to resist the extrajudicial violence, but we have to make it abundantly clear that extrajudicial violence is being used as weaponized distraction because it is. it’s the best way to stop it
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It’s also just so weird that this sentiment seems to be popping up out of nowhere. If I didn’t recognize OP’s username, I’d definitely think it was an organized campaign from some TotallynotBotFarm
100% agreed on what you said. Epstein is breaking people on the right, why would we stop talking about it? We want as many people as possible to see how bad they fucked up
i understand the root of the sentiment. it’s exhausting talking to people in a cult to get them out of the cult about the things the cult talks about. this is also why i think in a rising era of state based religious fascism, atheists and agnostics need to study theology. people who are resisting the fascism have to know how to make propaganda that works on the masses in thrall that can be shifted. not doing it is just kind of letting the fascists win, and that’s not an acceptaple outcome. i understand not wanting to do it because you’re not interested, but these times demand empathetic self sacrifice to create a future in which we can just not study things we’re not interested in
i feel like i’m not making sense
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I grew up religious so I know exactly what you’re talking about. You can’t convince someone on the right with the same logic as someone on the left.
It’s generally better to give someone the facts and let them come to their own conclusion than to spell it out for them but that’s especially true with the religious right.
But we don’t have to convince them that pedophiles are bad. We don’t have to harp on the likelihood that Trump is one. We just have to agree that Epstein was a sex trafficker, that there’s powerful people protecting his clients, and the government holds the key to prosecuting them.
Want a shortcut? “When is Trump going to hold Bill Clinton and the other pedo democrats accountable?”
If I didn’t recognize OP’s username, I’d definitely think it was an organized campaign from some TotallynotBotFarm
Maybe you should reevaluate your immediate reaction to dissent if your first thought is ‘bot farm’ and not ‘another person just has a different take than me.’
OP is not the only one suddenly voicing this opinion. I had never seen it before last week and now there’s been a dozen posts/comments on this pretty bad take.
But regardless, people said the same thing about the protest non-voters. They’re just voicing their opinions, right?
If you don’t think there are literally people who aren’t bots who think things you don’t there is nothing I can add to this conversation.
It’s kind of funny that you also decide that seeing an opinion somewhere multiple times is evidence of a conspiracy and not like… people getting sick of annoying shit.
I do think that but it doesn’t change my point at all. The group most vocally opposed to releasing the files is currently running the country. Why would I not find it weird that someone from the left is telling us to get over it?
Kind of funny that you think a rightwing campaign to change public opinion “from the inside” is so unheard of that someone would be weird to raise an eyebrow to this
Why would I not find it weird that someone from the left is telling us to get over it?
You could try finding anyone anywhere in this thread saying that, but you would fail.
The extrajudicial violence is the goal, not a means to an end.
no for sure. but i’m not talking about the origins of the extrajudicial violence, i’m talking about how to end it. to do that we need more allies, and to gain more allies we need messaging that reaches the people who don’t understand that the cruelty is the point, and think it’s a means to an end. we need to be pointing out that in all this chaos, killing, and violence that epstein’s clients have gotten no closer to justice, and many have gained power. we need to be pointing out that organized crime outfits thrive in these conditions. the chaos, killing, and violence is a tool of the pedophiles, not a tool that slows them down.
we have to let go of our pride and let go of being correct, a little bit. it’s not about knowing better than the conservatives, it’s about showing the conservatives who are possible to change the error of their ways in a way that they’ll understand. we’ll never survive if we’re too dedicated to purity of action to take actions that will help us long term.
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Trump got convicted of rape in court. There’s the pictures and letters he sent to epstein. He has said publicly he wants to fuck his daughter, and admitted to peeping on young girlds changing. He’s had so many other scandals. Why is this one more special? His supporters will either pretend the files were altered, or deflect in other ways.
That’s not to say the files don’t matter, but they won’t change much at this point.
His supporters have wanted its release for 6 years
Their dear leader has was talking about the Epstein files nonstop up until he had the opportunity to release them. If you think there’s not TONS of pissed off Trump voters, you haven’t been paying attention.
I have been paying attention. They only cared because “the corrupt democrats” were on it. The files were only a pawn, and most of his supports have already starting saying they don’t matter.
No dingus, we just can’t DO anything with the Epstein case, the king owns the judicial branch and his kingdom doesn’t care about it. It’s a dead-end while we CAN in fact fight on the front of demanding the admin hold to the constitution for freedom of speech, because without that we won’t even SEE things like the Epstein scandal.
It’s not the same, you just have to soothe the butthurt that we can’t keep calling everything else bad that happens a “distraction” because the other things that are happening are real and bad and they will destroy us.
Why does “Trump owns the government so nothing will happen” apply to the Epstein files but not anything else you’re talking about?
The point has been made elsewhere on this thread - voters on the right care about the Epstein files, they don’t care about the civil rights of minorities.
“They’re abducting people!” is met with hatred for minorities but “they’re protecting pedophiles by not releasing the list” is met with disgust and hatred for kid diddlers
That makes a lot of sense to me, actually.
Leave it to Americans to have fucked up priorities. Pedophilia is more scandalous than murder and torture even if the latter happen on an industrial scale.
To the detractors saying it’s the only thing that could get Trump supporters to abandon him. He could do a minor live on TV on Times Square and they would not budge so long he kills and prosecutes those they hate.
I think people are tired of the endless attention shifting from one news cycle to the next. Everything is super important, until the next thing comes along which always demands our attention.
e: I never expressed an opinion on whether it was good/bad. I’m just explaining the reason why.
And yet, forcing Epstein into every conversation only marginalizes the people who each particular issue affects. If people claim that trans people getting our rights taken away is a distraction from Epstein, it makes me feel like my life doesn’t matter. If people act like our freedom of speech getting taken away distracts from Epstein, I feel like they’re ignoring the real issue. It has a time and a place, not every time and every place.
Then hammer about the regime and political environment as a whole. Zoom out to the bigger picture, and let the details blend together. Focus on the neverending stream of one dangerous step after the other, and the rapidness of it.
That there’s non-stop news about new horrible things that are happening should be immensely alarming. Don’t focus on individual trees that are burning, focus on the forest that’s on fire.
We work forest fires by zones and in teams. We work closely with the rangers who knew the individual ridges and trees, and with surrounding counties and townships concerning risk and resources.
Epstein shame stick is working better than direct conversations about human trafficking and capitalism. No one is shutting up about Palestine. No one is shutting up about the amazon and pipelines and contaminated farm land and the cold death of comoditization.
We’re trying to reclaim the radio tower and the factory. Pick a cause, pick a group, do the fuck out of your role.
The problem I have is that people are hijacking threads about other very serious things that he is doing every day.
Full hijacking bad. Making sure it gets mentioned nearly everywhere, fine with me.
So then post articles about it, or write them yourself. Don’t hijack threads about Trump designating trans people as terrorists, or Trump deporting people from South America to fucking Africa.
Buddy, you’re living in a crazy world where people know what’s real and care about things that matter.
