Gretchen Whitmer responds to calls by some Democrats to vote āuncommittedā in Michiganās primary on Tuesday
Gretchen Whitmer, the Michigan governor, pushed back on calls to not vote for Joe Biden over his handling of the Israel-Gaza conflict, saying on Sunday that could help Trump get re-elected.
āItās important not to lose sight of the fact that any vote thatās not cast for Joe Biden supports a second Trump term,ā she said on Sunday during an interview on CNNās State of the Union. āA second Trump term would be devastating. Not just on fundamental rights, not just on our democracy here at home, but also when it comes to foreign policy. This was a man who promoted a Muslim ban.ā
Whitmer, who is a co-chair of Bidenās 2024 campaign, also said she wasnāt sure what to expect when it came to the protest vote.
Rashida Tlaib, a Democrat who is the only Palestinian-American serving in Congress, urged Democrats last week to vote āuncommittedā in Michiganās 27 February primary.
Alternate title: Michigan governor explains first past the post voting. People unhappy.
This is a primary. Voting for Biden wonāt make it less likely that Trump will be elected.
So theyāre not even the official candidates yet? Just how long is your election cycle?
4 years.
Primaries are rigged thereās no real choice
Thatās not really true. Primaries werenāt rigged in the Rupublican primaries in 2016. They voted Trump in despite what the RNC wanted. It was the Demās primary that was rigged (and turned a bunch of people off of voting in the main election, and it seems those people still havenāt learned anything).
How were the Dem primaries rigged. I still see lots of people claim this to this day. But no one has ever presented evidence. I voted for Sanders in 2016 and 2020 primaries. But legitimately more people voted for Clinton in 2016. She also won more delegates. She won fair and square. Now do I think there needs to be a better process? Absolutely. But in the system democrats have used for the last 30 to 40 years Sanders lost fairly despite a strong showing.
The superdelegates, which in 2016 made up about 15% of the delegates, were not elected and are not beholden to any voters, they just chose whichever candidate they wanted, and 604 out of 651 went for Clinton immediately, which meant Bernie started off at an immediate disadvantage.
Thereās this idea that if itās technically possible to succeed, that the system is not rigged (see racism, sexism, etc). But thatās ridiculous. If someone starts off at a major advantage over their competition, the system is rigged for them. If, in the general election, one candidate started off with 75 electoral votes because some unelected people just decided they liked that candidate, I imagine we would call that system rigged in favor of that candidate (even if it is technically possible for their opponent to win). Not only that, but starting off at such a deficit for what would already have been considered a close race is likely to make those who might have voted for Bernie just not bother showing up.
So yes, Iād say the primary was rigged against Bernie. And the Democrats seem to agree, because they got rid of superdelegates for the initial vote, because everyone was pissed.
The DNC used that system FOR DECADES. They didnāt implement it in 2015 to snub Sanders. And as shitty as it was. It was better than what they had before. This, this is why no one rightfully takes you seriously. Or shows any respect. Hyperbolic, disingenuous BS.
Youāre apparently forgetting the head of the DNC that got fired for giving debate questions to Clinton.
Youāre also apparently forgetting the DNC argument in court that because they are a private organization that they didnāt have to abide by their own rules requiring fairness.
None of those are even touching the super delegate issues that others commented on.
So, The DNC gave Clinton the questions. And then they fired the head as a patsy? Or the head gave Clinton the questions and the DNC who didnāt rig things fired her over it.
Depends what you mean by āriggedā.
The parties, the candidates, the PACs, and the media are all theoretically (and in many cases, legally bound to be) separate entities, acting independently. But in reality, a lot of them share the same interests, and so some things happen that arenāt exactly collusion or breaking any rules, but do give an advantage to one candidate, which many voters consider unfair.
In the case of the 2016 DNC primary, I think the critical objection is not the existence of superdelegates, but how they were presented in the media.
Clinton hovered between 54%-59% of the pledged delegates, but the media coverage would consistently include superdelegates in the count, showing Clinton ahead by 600 or so delegates, giving her ā70% of the total count, and making her the presumptive nominee! The Sanders campaign doesnāt have any chance of coming back from this!ā ā¦before most of the country had even voted.
This kind of thing happens all the time, with lots of stuff, and itās not technically āriggingā.
But seeing an official-looking number on TV ā that you know, provably, doesnāt reflect the reality of the ongoing electionā¦ That feels, to many people, like itās āriggedā.
I mean rigged when I say rigged. But yes I agree with a lot of your other points. The system absolutely should be more democratic and clearer. And our media should absolutely be constantly rebuked for the shit show it is.
I have no love for the system or democrats. But I really think all this talk about it being āriggedā nearly a decade on. Realistically is keeping us from improving the situation or finding better solutions. Instead grinding some perceived axe. While people, we all would likely be United against are United themselves getting things that we hate done. Clinton and Wasserman Schultz definitely earned plenty of that ire though.
Everyone says they didnt want him, but an idiot demagogue is a useful fool.
Altrrnate theory: They didnt know who would beat Hillary, so they played as many candidates as possible until they figured it out.
Thatās some nice history rewriting but the RNC actually openly loathed Trump until he won the primary - thatās when they became bootlickers.
Ah yeah, politicians never lie
Please explain to me, in detail, how the '16 Dem primaries were rigged. Bernie was literally on every single ballot, right alongside Hillary.
I responded in detail to the comment before yours (you and I posted within a minute of each other), but in a word, superdelegates.
Yea, neither Biden nor Trump have the official party endorsement yet. Presidential elections in the US usually last between two and five years depending on how you define them.
The news starts talking about the next election the day after the election so our election cycle is permanent at this point.
General election is in November. Get comfortable, itās gonna be a while.
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Neoliberals never let a silly thing like facts get in their way.
Theyāre just republicans who donāt want the cool kids to hate them.
The fucked up part is theyre the only other option this election, and they know it.
Itās not good enough for them that Biden is better than trump, they want 100% support for all the fucked up shit Biden is doing as well.
they want 100% support for all the fucked up shit Biden is doing as well
Who are you even talking about?
Israelās Genocide that is only possible because of our unwavering political and military support, probably
And they yell at us for not putting up with their putrid shit. Whatever happened to āpush Biden leftā
You have? Like, itās been a clear influence in the policies of his administration. Iām my opinion, it would be pretty short sighted to turn that influence into disdain.
Israelās extermination of Gazans with our unwavering funding is not a āleftā policy
And wouldnāt you know it, thereās a lot more to an administration than their stance on Israel. Stop trying to boil everything down to truisms and catchphrases. If you really donāt think that the left has had a sizeable impact on Bidenās admin, we donāt really have a lot to talk about here.
The left has had a sizeable impact on Bidenās domestic policies. Including the Inflation Reduction Act, American Rescue Plan, and the Bipartisan infrastructure Law.
The Biden administration has been funding and arming the Israeli genocide of Gaza
Both are true. And genocide is the worst thing a country can do. I learned that in 6th grade when we learned about the importance of ensuring āNever Againā re: the Holocaust
Biden supports genocide. Centrists happy.
Itās a fucking primary.
This is literally the only point in time we can try to drag Biden too the left, will we get him far enough that he stops being pro-genocide? Probably not, dude is all in on Israel and always has been.
But telling people they donāt even get to vote ānot committedā in a fucking meaningless primary is something so undemocratic if you told me it would happen this primary Iād have bet millions on it being republicans.
But then again, Iād have bet billions on them being the ones to pull delegates for something the state party had zero control over.
Not holding Dems to standards may have already fucked the country for good.
Itās a fucking primary
I donāt know why people donāt get this.
Since 2000 progressives have been told to vote for who you want in the primary and then hold your nose in the general.
Now weāre supposed to hold our nose in the primary, too?!
I donāt have enough clothespins for this bullshit.
Since 2000 progressives have been told to vote for who you want in the primary and then hold your nose in the general.
NH went progressive over party favorite moderate the last two primaries they had that countedā¦
So this party the DNC said their votes count for nothing, then Biden withdrew and threw money at a write in campaign so the headlines would be āBiden wins even as a write in!ā
And not:
āDNC just made NH primary meaningless for something only NH republican officials could change!ā
They know this is just a primary.
Theyāre just conservatives deep down and give zero fucks lying and destroying democracy if they win. And itās not enough to win, they demand 100% loyalty.
Just like trumpers.
Itās why Dem standards canāt just be ābetter than a Republicanā.
itās why the democratic party is going to fracture.
Hopely only slightly after the republican party. But both are trying to be the last one standing, so to speak.
The problem is Progressives arenāt offering up any other option. Who am I supposed to vote FOR this time around? āNo oneā isnāt much of a rallying cry.
Why should they? the DNC will never allow a progressive to be the party candidate. which is why we didnāt have bernie in '16ā¦ like the VOTERS WANTED.
I would say 2020 was the real stingerā¦ clyburn in south carolina playing king maker.
New Hampshire went for Sanders in 2020, and were punished by losing their primary representation in 2024. South Carolina proved pivotal to the Biden campaign, so theyāre rewarded by going first.
Yuuuup. There were plenty of better states to choose if they just wanted a less-white state. Georgia is diverse and actually in play, but instead we kick off with a state thatās deep red with an ineffectual Democratic party because they voted the way the winners liked.
Because in 2020 the progressive candidate was the front runner. 4 years later they have no one else to offer up? No wants to vote for Biden. This is the progressive caucusās moment, and theyāre failing to respond to what the voters want.
The progressive caucus fell apart the last couple years. Even Fetterman has started towing the line.
Then to be quite honest thatās something progressives need to focus on and work through if they want to be taken seriously going forward. Railing against Biden will only get them so far. At the end of the day, voters need something to be in favor of, to rally behind.
Agree completely, which is why I hope more progressives keep running for local offices
Progressivism is a marble on a hill. Either they roll to the right and join the liberals because they support and believe in an unjust hierarchical system as long as itās sufficiently pinkwashed or roll hard left because they see the issue is the system itself
The hill ima die on: sortition
There are great progressive candidates running. You just donāt see it because the DNC is hard at work behind the scenes canceling primaries, removing candidates from the ballot, instructing the corporate media to not report on it, and sending out people like Whitmer to manufacture consent for there being no actual primary debates or competition.
Bidenās ego demands a second term, thereās no voter choice involved here.
If progressives had put someone up against an incumbent they would have been accused of wanting Trump to win.
Also, their candidate would be deemed unelectable and voting for them in the primary would be helping Trump to win.
Also, America is not a progressive country and even if they won the nomination theyād probably lose.
Why? Because America wants this shitshow. Why else would they keep choosing it? They donāt want problems solved, they want arguments and hot takes and āslamsā and ābashes.ā
If the voters wanted Bernie in '16, they could have gotten off of their collective asses and voted for him. He was on every single state ballot. The fact is, more voters voted for Hillary.
I cannot remember an election where the incumbent got primaried. And even if we tried weād be accused of hurting the establishment candidateās chances in the general.
The Dem olds in Congress were not happy to see AOC stomp on Crowley (10 term incumbent) back in '18 (I think).
You have to know thatās not comparable to a presidential election
And thatās why they pulled out all the stops to block Cisneros and support anti-choice NRA stooge Cuellar.
Eric Cantor but thatās not exactly a 1:1 comparison.
Now weāre supposed to hold our nose in the primary, too?!
āBehave, or else you get the Orange Turd.ā seems to be the message.
Thereās nothing in this article that indicates sheās talking about the primary vs the general election
True. Which is just bad reporting
Who is on the ballot that drives him left exactly? Whatās the name?
Is someone telling you you donāt āgetā to vote how you want? Telling someone you disagree with their choice or that theyāre dumb for voting a certain way is not at all stopping that person from voting how they want and not at all undemocratic
Iām not trying to defend the āpro genocideā thing at all, although Iām expecting to be down voted regardless, butā¦
Isnāt support for Israel over Gaza an American / western thing rather than specifically Biden?
Like is it reasonably possible to have a POTUS that wouldnāt support Israel?
I guess they could be more overt in their condemnation of Israelās behaviour, but Iām not sure how meaningful that is.
Isnāt support for Israel over Gaza an American / western thing rather than specifically Biden?
Biden has spent 50 years calling himself a Zionist and saying nothing will ever make him stop supporting Israel.
Itās hard to think anyone believes thatās normalā¦
Like is it reasonably possible to have a POTUS that wouldnāt support Israel?
Bernie and every other progressive.
I think part of the problem is that people are so on edge with how close we are to democracy ending. And how fine, and even eager many are to move on to full fascism. It is a primary though. And what really matters is a commitment to defeat fascism in November.
However you donāt do yourself any favors acting like a teenage edge lord. Saying hyperbolic bs like pro-genocide etc etc etc. Bidenās actions on the front are absolutely questionable. Poor strategy wise considering Bibi isnāt going to listen to anyone. And just going to do whatever he wants. So all Biden is likely going to get out of it is a tarnished image. Even if we cut Israel off completely, something Biden canāt do himself. It wouldnāt stop Bibi the butcher. But then itās always easier to call hyperbolic names than it is to come up with actual working solutions.
youāre pro genocide
No u.
you clearly have a pro-trump agenda, as evidenced by your comment historyā¦
youāre spam, and pro-genocideYouāve completely lost the thread.
ok, tropical ding dong
Trump, the one who moved the US embassy would, if anything, support Israel even more aggressively than Biden.
Itās so infuriating how difficult it is for people to understand this
There are also a large amount of people who understand this and are intentionally acting as if they donāt. This is just this roundās version of the āwalk awayā people from previous elections.
Walk away is such a shitty psyop. I feel bad for anyone stupid enough to fall for the obvious bullshit.
Some people love genocide so much they cannot imagine anyone opposing it without ulterior motives.
Some people love to argue in bad faith.
Is there a good faith argument that can be made in favor of supporting genocide?
No one is supporting genocide. Hence why Oderus implied you were arguing in bad faith. Quit now before you make an ass of yourself.
āOpposition to genocide isnāt realā, is pretty close to supporting it.
A young man just lit himself on fire to protest our complicity in the genocide, this isnāt a made up issue. The people up in arms in my social feeds arenāt faceless Russians, they the people who would work past campaigns and donate to Democrats.
Biden circumvented congress to sell weapons to Netanyahu for genocide. Thatās support for genocide.
You canāt justify support for genocide, and I doubt you want Biden to stop doing so. So letās see which Standard Centrist Dismissal you select instead.
Just like @[email protected] said, no one is arguing for genocide so youāre not arguing in good faith. Imagine being so blind and you think Trump and Biden are the same. Unreal how reductive some people are.
If it were possible, you would be ashamed of your comment but here you are.
Imagine being so blind and you think Trump and Biden are the same.
I didnāt say that either. Biden should stop supporting genocide.
Democrats should not be supporting genocide. Regardless of how much worse the alternative is.
The alternative appears to be that same genocide plus an authoritarian state run by a corrupt egoistist BTW. Voting for a party is and never has been a vote to support literally every policy they stand on.
Most would agree, but putting a worse person in power through apathy or inaction isnāt the solution.
Iām not advocating for voting for Trump or not voting.
Democrats should not be supporting genocide.
WOW THANKS FOR THE TIP
Iāll stop saying it if they ever stop doing it.
Shame Dems wonāt take it
And what does that look like to you this election cycle?
Stop the bullshit double speak, half truth skirting around the conversation and say, flat out and in plain English, how do you propose we handle this situation as a voter? Give us an actual solution.
We should continue the protests until Biden stops supporting genocide.
We should vote for Biden and not Trump. Democrats should not support genocide. The two arenāt contradictory.
Stop the bullshit double speak
āDemocrats should not support genocideā is a simple, direct statement.
Your point is received. Itās a shitty point, but please, you keep trying to elaborate but you just keep repeating the same useless point.
There isnāt one, unless we can somehow replace key centre-right policymakers inside the Democrat party and drag the party to a more firmly progressive platform
Yep, so vote Bernie in the primaries, then when he loses the primary and the election is Biden vs Trump vote Biden.
It sucks that our election system has been warped into a two party shitshow, but here we are.
Our ecosystem will not survive a Trump term. That means our food supply will not survive a Trump term. We do not want a neverending dust bowl.
Additionally of you really think Trump will do anything for peace you havenāt been listening to his words or looked at his actions.
You think Trump, the guy who makes transparent threats of violence every other sentence, would stop Israel from levelling Gaza?
Heās good friends with and likely has donations from Netanyahu. And all Trump and the GOP have to do (as usual) is sit back and watch the left fight and destroy itself while the gop sit back and win.
Democrats are so damn stupid. Not a single one of your candidates and potential presidents is against Israel, none, so why make it an issue for this election?
Primaries are the place for protest votes. You want to send a message, send it now in the primary.
Come general election, itās time to shut up and protect the country.
Not just a second Trump term, but a second Trump term and continuation/acceleration of the genocide in Gaza. Not voting and letting Trump win with a razor thin margin in a swing state will not fix the problem. Between the two realistic choices, Biden is infinitely more likely to push Israel for a ceasefire, which is the best chance anybody has to get the situation under control.
Not only that, but it effectively does nothing as Trump will support Israel as well.
Itās a primaryā¦
What theyāre hoping it will do is show the party and Biden that his actions donāt follow the value of Dem voters.
The goal is for him to shape up so he doesnāt depress turnout and letās trump wins like when he ran against Hillary.
Ignoring the problem and letting the media keep calling Biden āmost progressive president yetā will disenfranchise Dems and hurt turnout.
Dem voters arenāt Republican voters. Fear isnāt enough to motivate them, it works on conservatives because theyāre statistically likely to have a larger amygdala. Liberals (actual liberals) are more likely to have increased frontal lobe activity that handles empathy and critical thinking.
The main problem is neoliberals are essentially conservatives. They may vote D, but they think like Rs. And without that critical thinking and empathy, they assume everyone else is like them. Like Republicans do.
The result is actual liberals look at both parties, and realize itās not a good thing the same type of people are now running the only two options. Especially when the donations are coming from the same place.
AIPAC for example. Theyāre funding Biden and Republicans who say Trump won, while attacking Dem incumbents who are against genocide.
Because all AIPAC cares about us Israel. They dont give two shits about Biden or America.
And as weāve seen with his decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem, his position is even more extreme. Everyone who has paid any attention to his position on such matter should be able to figure out what his response to the current conflict would be. He for sure wouldnāt even try to reign Netanyahu in but actively encourage further brutalities. Thatās exactly the āstrong manā bullshit Trump adores.
So even if you really dislike Bidenās handling of this whole shit show, you better believe that Trump would be even worse. And thatās just the foreign politics part of the Middle East, we all know what harm Trump wants to cause to the US itself.
Moving embassy to Jerusalem was bad because it basically spit in the face of Palestinians - but we are literally supplying bombs that are killing Palestinians right now.
Oneās a spit in the face. The other is a 2,000lb warhead in the face.
Would Trump have done the same? Probably. But we know for a fact Biden did what he did.
Trump absolutely would support Israel AT LEAST as much as Biden does right now. I mean come on, Israel is killing lots of Muslims, thatās something Trump can always get behind.
I used the example of the embassy since itās something previous administrations wouldnāt have done as they knew it would only unnecessary put oil into the fire. And Biden damn sure knows this as well. Trump, either didnāt care or didnāt listen.
if i were a muslim i would not vote for biden. i wouldnāt vote for trump eitherā¦ but definitely not biden
again. we know with 100% certainty biden supports the genocide. even if trump is 95%, thatās still better odds
again. we know with 100% certainty biden supports the genocide. even if trump is 95%, thatās still better odds
Then you simply didnāt pay attention to Trumps attitude to Muslims in general and advocating war crimes without any impunity. Trump absolutely would be worse than Biden in this situation. He for example for sure wouldnāt have made Netanyahu drop the complete blockade of food and water. He would have cheered this cruelty on.
i donāt know what trump would have done. neither do you. the guyās a bit of a wild card. for example look at russia heās totally down to just drop the ukraine war. meanwhile biden supports prolonging it however long is necessary
iām not defending trump iām just saying if i were a muslim and especially if i were a Palestinian i would never vote for biden. itās unforgivable. i support the muslims in michigan. if the democrats want votes, they need to push policies that the people actually want
they canāt just expect people to keep voting for them because of the eternal right-wing boogeyman. because itās getting so bad people are actually starting to wonder if maybe the far-right proto fascist is better and thatās a piss poor state of affairs for a democracy to be in
i donāt know what trump would have done. neither do you. the guyās a bit of a wild card. for example look at russia heās totally down to just drop the ukraine war. meanwhile biden supports prolonging it however long is necessary
What are you talking about? Trump obviously wouldnāt support Ukraine. Itās really no secret that heās in Russiaās pocket. His attitude towards Muslims also is something heās very open about. Not to mention his love for strong-men wanna be dictators like Netanyahu is well known. To think that he would be better for Palestinians is ridiculous. So no, Iām absolutely certain that Trump would have handled this situation much worse and will handle it worse if he gets into office while itās still raging.
they canāt just expect people to keep voting for them because of the eternal right-wing boogeyman. because itās getting so bad people are actually starting to wonder if maybe the far-right proto fascist is better and thatās a piss poor state of affairs for a democracy to be in
Then these people are fucking stupid and donāt realise how much they have to loose living under fascism. Especially if their Muslims living in the US! The Israel Palestinian conflict is one thing, to loose democracy at home is something much worse.
It effectively proves to Democrats that if they support Genocide like Republicans they will never win.
If Democrats want to bend over backwards to appeal to a small minority of AIPAC voters, they will lose all their other voters.
Oh, it has nothing to do with AIPAC VOTERS. Itās ALL about AIPAC DONORS.
Big differenceā¦
Itās both. Dems want to appeal to voters that are brainwashed by AIPAC.
There is also a Zionist minority in America that will only vote for a Zionist president and Dems are so afraid to lose them that they will throw away every single moral value they have to appeal to them.
But if the Dems arenāt shown that they will lose more voters by kneeling for AIPAC than they will gain, the Dems will not be incentivized to clean up their act. In fact Dems will only become more extreme in their Zionism because they know that people will keep voting for AIPAC anyways.
Biden still has a shot to win voters back by actually managing to get recognition for a Palestinian state implemented. But heās just dancing around that subject as long as possible and it doesnāt look like heās serious in any way.
There are more AIPAC dollars than there are AIPAC voters, but then I guess thatās always the inherent problem with our political system:
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S
The top three israeli money recipients being Democrats, and the top being Biden, is not a great argument to vote Democrat though.
If Biden tanks Israel where do you think that money is going to go?
Biden is the most willing to sell out to israel. Which is why Biden is getting that money. I must say that the Dems are very cheap too, they sell their souls for a few million dollars.
āIf I donāt do it somebody else willā is the default excuse for any crime. This excuse only works if enough people keep believing in it.
āLetās (literally) destroy democracy so we might be able to save the Democratic Partyā.
Did you miss all the great speeches at CPAC?
Do you not understand what āprimaryā means?
A meaningless formality since 2012.
āLetās literally commit Genocide so Biden doesnāt have to run another 4 yearsā.
Trumps rise to power is a direct consequence of the DNC sabotaging every attempt of real progressives like Bernie that could have actually fixed issues.
It creates both voter apathy and it enables right-wingers to point to the deteriorated standards of living under Biden and blame Biden for it (and biden pulls out another 15 Billion for israel) (cue someone linking me how people working 3 jobs is good for unemployment)
If Biden wins now the unrest and support for right-wing authoritarianism will only grow.
If Trump loses the election, that will not remove the threats and social changes that trigger the āaction sideā of authoritarianism.
The authoritarians will still be there. They will still look for candidates who will give them the strong, punitive leadership they desire.
If bad Dems keep winning the right will only grow stronger.
If Biden wins this time #Hitler2028 is a plausible reality as Biden is doing nothing to address any real problems and only gradually making things worse. Further bolstering Republicans.
The only way I see Biden winning this election is a) Trump has a stroke B) they throw Trump in jail
The polls are clear, people are growing increasingly tired of Biden. Trump was one of the most unpopular presidents in history - and Biden is even more unpopular.
Weāre fucked either way, like you said. Biden wins and the unrest is delayed and will blow up even stronger later on. Put Trump in jail and that unrest will be amplified tenfold. Look what happened when Hitler got out of jail (or Lula in Brazil for a more recent example) If Bifen loses, we of course have our proto-fascist.
Honestly I admire Trump for both his ability to absolutely dominate the GOP, even when the big donors are directly against him and his perseverance and dedication to do literally anything in his power to win.
I donāt know how he still has such a fire inside him at his age.
Honestly I admire Trump for both his ability to absolutely dominate the GOP
He only beat Haley 60-40 in SC. Media talks about his big primary wins, but theyāre not really showing a politician that has really consolidated his party, especially as a virtual incumbent. Heās probably the only Republican Biden could beat, and Biden is conversely the only Democrat Trump could beat. Yet on we march to a repeat general election between two candidates most people donāt like.
to be fair, thatās probably one of the worst performing states for him because itās Haleyās home state
Look at what happened at the primary in Nevada. He was removed from the ballot so he told his supporters to not go out and vote. What happened? Over 60% voted ānone of these candidatesā
Nikki Haley lost to ānone of these candidatesā
if you look at the polls for the republican primary: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-r/2024/national/
trump is >75%
thatās domination, especially considering a) desantis got more funding AND was polling better at the start of the campaign season and b) nikki haley picked up that funding after desantis dropped out
the establishment republicans are desperate to get rid of trump but heās like a tick that wonāt go away
He wasnāt removed from the ballot, he chose to remove himself because the party rules said candidates had to do that to compete in the caucus that would actually choose electors. āNone of the aboveā were just Trump votes, which falls in line with a candidate who should be doing better for his name recognition and history.
He can be solidly above 50%, assuring a primary win, and still not be demonstrating that heās consolidated his party. He won his 2020 primaries with 94% of the vote.
I donāt like our current system but I donāt believe she is wrong. We have a two party system. Either the GOP or the DNC candidate will take the electoral college.
I hate that we are still voting against something. The Democrats need to run a candidate that we WANT to vote for (like Obama was imo) but we arenāt there in this election so we can either protest and vote 3rd party, vote for Trump, or vote for Biden.
Objectively correct take.
You can validly hate Biden for the handling of Gaza. But not voting for him is just helping the Fascists win.
Swallow your pride. Do your duty at the ballot and then make the real changes by organising and protests.
No. Itās not on the voters to show up no matter what. Itās on the politicians to be someone we want to vote for. We already did āvote blue no matter who and pressure them for change later.ā And now weāre funding a genocide. Thatās over. Now itās pressure time.
Absolutely correct. āVote blue no matter whoā got us here. The idea failed.
More objectively correct take:
Thanks to the political-parties highjacking governing-the-country,
they can commit any crime or abomination, whatsoever, and you only can choose between them, because the rigged-system wonāt permit anyone to have any alternative to what the incumbent political-parties offer.
There: fixed it for you.
You know 3rd parties run all the time right? We even have multiple senators right now that are independents
Okay, so then, do your duty, vote for biden, then work to support ranked choice voting?
Why do you think the neoliberals running the DNC will let ranked choice happen?
FPTP is the only reason neoliberals and Republicans can get elected, while they control both parties, weāll never get rid of it.
To get ranked choice, progressives first have to replace neoliberals, and then win so many elections it doesnāt matter what Republicans want.
RCC isnāt the cure, itās what we do after we win. Because itās not going to happen until after we win.
For anyone confused or refuting this in their mind, look up the DNCās history on ranked choice and the efforts theyāve used to stop it. The only effective legislation passed in a few states was done by citizens with outside state help.
Any reason it canāt be done by referendums brought forward by the voters. Just need so rich Hollywood types to put up money and support.
Itās complicated and I could go into details about every nuanced situation for a few hours. A few highlights,
There are 24 states that do not provide for statewide citizen-initiated ballot measures (link)
Alaska for some reason is my favorite example
Ballot Measure 2 supporters spent nearly $7 million and campaigned for a year and a half ahead of the election (outside state support). Brett Huber, campaign manager of the leading vote-no group, said his team āhad a short amount of time and a lot less money, and we tried our bestā (opponents to RCV). Ballot Measure 2 has received the support of 50.55% of Alaskaās voters (link)
So its slightly possible, with millions of dollars from outside state support, years to campaign, and catching the main political parties unaware of your movements.
Zionism can be equated to fascism. Biden has stated multiple times that he is a Zionist. Neo-liberal fascists are already in power and they are destroying the left. you are saying do your duty at the ballot by saying vote this way or you are wasting a vote (that doesnāt actually count anyway because the pop vote doesnāt decide the presidency). I will do my duty by not partaking in sham elections for a two party state that I donāt have any faith in whatsoever to deliver anything they promise. Because they have no obligation to fulfill anything they say they will do to get into office. That in itself is protest so I am doing the real changes, as you say.
They arenāt destroying the left, there just has never been a meaningful left in America.
Sure thatās why FDR never won in an absolute landslide.
Itās why none of the last successful Democrat presidency runs over the last 2+ decades have been based on progressive reform and no Democrat would run with a slogan like āChange we can believe inā with only one outlier being the most recent election based on a distinct aversion to fascism.
America has never created national parks, new deals for farmers, or held up a man who was against war during the Cold war.
Nah. Left just doesnāt exist.
national parks that still rob native peoples of their land? is that progressive to you? new deals for farmers, on stolen land? donāt act like america is anything to be proud of, even the leftest leaning presidents still upheld the empire.
Better than drilling on it. You canāt go back and undo history. Itās happened. Itās a shit take to just show it was someone elseās land. It always is. We are all living in someone elseās house and something elseās environment, so Iām and so forth.
Yes we can be better in the future and should aim for that but just screaming that itās all crap is really derivative of every history of everything.
Its a shit response to say that everybody has had land stolen. Especially when those peoples are still alive. So if we are to be better, then we need to acknowledge that there is still justice undone. And again these native peoples are still here, they arenāt gone. Native Hawaiians are actively being poisoned due to the US militaryās ignorance and neglect of their own infrastructure. Democrats arenāt talking about that are they? Hawaii was illegally annexed but Iām sure Democrats vacation there just as much as Republicans. They are still fighting for rights to their land and anyone in Congress or the White House would say they can go fuck themselves.
Yes Iām actually fully in agreement that native Hawaiians are being pushed into extinction but thatās part of the now that needs to be fixed. Actions have to be taken for the current issues and there may and very usually is history to navigate within because it does matter but you canāt just ask for history to change we need to figure out solutions for now.
And yeah rich people of all parties arenāt going to be particularly interested and itās obvious our government doesnāt work right. Your original point that national parks arenāt progressive is bad because even though stolen they are protected wild lands for hundreds of years. The new deal was a huge help to failing farms that are literally needed to feed people. We are facing inequality of massive magnitudes and climate change that is going to cause farming issues of the future, and climate refugees and economic refugees. We have to work with that now, looking at what the future we see from our choices with enough remembrance of the past but not clinging to it.
Unless you just want to be angry.
Edit: also my point is that eventually no matter what someone else will take your land whether they are your progeny or your replacement. Itās never your land or your stuff. Itās just temporary.
As if this isnāt happening across the globe. American politics is not the only domain infested with the neolibs
Youāll just be forfeiting your vote. The same reasoning can be heard in any country come election time, but in truth youāre only making a gesture and its effects are contained in your mind. If you donāt vote, even though all you said is true, this election system is a sham, etc. youāre still helping Trump in the short term and the harm he will do to women, foreigners, anybody whoās not rich, and the american society at large. Gestures, symbols and statements are good, but not at this price. I live across the world but if I could vote in the american elections, I would, and Iām not even part of any of these endangered demographics. I suppose you arenāt either ?
I am an intersection of multiple demographics you mentioned and if you were any of them, you would know that biden and the democratic party has not done anything meaningful for any of them. Roe couldāve been codified, but he didnāt. biden couldāve expand the court and add new justices, but he didnāt. biden couldāve already secured a cease fire, but he hasnāt. biden spat on the rail workers asking for one week sick pay. said nope, fuck you. he also has done practically nothing about amazons union busting. biden didnāt give a shit about east palestine. flint michigan still doesnāt have clean water. he could be creating legislation to protect trans kids and adults, but doesnāt care. so what exactly is your argument about the oppressed demographics having better lives under democrats?
And furthermore, it is not just a gesture. Or at least its as much of a gesture as voting. Its effects are demonstrably not just ācontained in my mindā because it is having an obvious effect on you and judging by the 16 upvotes on the comment, perhaps I have inspired or emboldened people to be just as critical as I am being. But you will say we are stupid or foolish or whatever you need to say. I say the fool is the one that continues to perform the same behaviour with no results and then tries to convince people to not do anything different. Look how worried they are of losing their power that they have to tell people that if you donāt vote for us, its back to the trump. what a lovely threat from the people that supposedly care about us more than trump. i know they donāt, i know trump doesnāt care. they donāt answer to us and you know it.
I will vote for Biden in the General Election, but I will not stop speaking out about the Genocide in Palestine. We can put a stop to this, now. We donāt have to wait for the election, we donāt want to let Netanyahu handle this situation in the slightest.
You have to put pressure on Biden because it could make a difference. There would be no convincing Trump. Israel has utterly failed this challenge. Netanyahu has proven himself beyond any reasonable doubt to be a criminal.
and biden is best friends with netanyahu. if we cant convince biden before an election, then we will not be able to convince him after one. we need to ask him to resign and realistically threaten that they WILL lost this election. nothing else will light a fire under their ass like that. nothing.
This might be a viable solution if there were a dem candidate coming up the pike that had a chance against Trump.
But there isnt. Your election choices are Trump and not Trump. Regardless of what you think of the ānot Trumpā option, Trump would be exponentially worse. Voting 3rd party or not voting at all is the equivalent of a vote for Trump.
no its not and you know it. american election cycles are really good anxiety producers. we have two options, one will make everything worse, one will make it so the bad guys cant win. but the democrats donāt want change. they want to appease their donors, one of the biggest being AIPAC. donāt act like democrats are gonna save the day. Iād say they just drop the ball but its not as if they really wanted to get in the hoop. They throw the game and then blame us for not voting hard enough and being too apathetic
And this is the only correct solution.
You see so many people in this thread essentially equating Trump and Biden because of Gaza, and they keep skirting around āyou shouldnāt vote Biden because both sides are the same tee-hee.ā
Thatās the joy of continuing with democracy in the US. Biden and āthe Leftā wonāt attempt to curtail your speech or throw you in jail. The other guysā¦ not so much.
biden is a zionist. he is definitely not part of the āthe Leftā. at no point in his career has he been a leftist. he is a centrist zionist.
LOL
Real talk now. You will stop speaking about the so called so called āGenocide in Gazaā as soon as youāre distracted by memes making you upset about something else.
Yahya Sinwar will be dead soon enough, and there will be a ceasefire in exchange for the remaining hostages. In a few months there wonāt be any more civilian casualties in your social media feeds and the memes will tell you that Dark Brandon made Israel accept the ceasefire. You will love the Dark Brandon because of the memes. A few weeks after that the memes and Tik Toks will be making you upset over Trump and you will have forgotten all about the Palestinians. Just like how you never cared about the Ethiopian civil war or any other conflict in the world unless the memes tell you youāre supposed to.
Netanyahu empowered this militant group to begin with, secured their funding for them. Theyāre targeting hospitals, border crossings, and refugee camps. Itās pretty clear that Israelās goals arenāt to defeat Hamas, but to kill as many Palestinians as possible before the time runs out.
And Israels plan is to remove Palestines border with Egypt, so that it will now be completely encircled by Israel.
This is new to me. Do you have any sources?
You think Israel are trying to kill as many palestinians as possible? Theyāre not doing a great job in that case.
The rate at which the Palestinians are dying is far above most historic wars. For example, WW2 had about 85,000,000 deaths in 2176 days and the total population of the world was about 2.5 Billion so 0.000015625% dead per day compared to the situation in Gaza where 30,000 dead out of 2 Million total in Gaza over 143 days is 0.015% dead per day. You could argue by including Israeli casualties and total population should be included for fair comparison, but itās still not even close.
Unhelpful to compare a 5 month conflict in a tiny country to a globe spanning war that lasted years though right? And whats the point in comparing the percentage of the global population that died in one war vs the percentage of people that died in gaza, does that tell us anything useful?
A more helpful comparison might be the battle of leningrad: 1 500 000 soviet civillians died in 872 days, which works out at 1720 per day. Add on another 3.5 million military deaths and youāre looking at 5733 every single day.
Theyāre doing a great job.
The most effective way to depopulate an area is what the Nazis finally ended up doing, and has been done by every genocidal group since.
You starve the population.
It takes a month or two for food stores to run out, then it takes about a month for the starvation to start killing people. During those first two months the numbers donāt go up a large amount. Afterwards they go up FAST.
It also kills off the children first, so even if not fully successful, youāve made the population older, and weaker, and less able to resist or fight back the next time.
This is what Israel is doing.
A 3 month old Palestinian boy died yesterday from starvation. He wasnāt even alive in Oct.
I hope you never have to eat grass to try to stave off the insanity inducing hunger you seem okay with Israel inducing.
Ah yes just naturally jump into assuming Iām ok with forced starvation. Touch grass.
You think Israel are trying to kill as many palestinians as possible? Theyāre not doing a great job in that case.
You certainly seem like youāre trying to whitewash the forced starvation because the numbers didnāt increase that much during the initial 2 month period it takes for starvation to start once the Israelis started the starvation campaign.
I mean sheās right. If you register a protest vote against Biden you need to accept the moral liability of helping Trump. There really isnāt any additional conversation here. You can write a million words about how you are making the perfect the enemy of the good, and none of it will change the very simple cause and effect of a protest vote.
Voting uncommitted is a fine thing to do during the primary. It shows the party that people are displeased with how the government is handling the Gaza situation.
Sitting out an election in Michigan is a bad idea. If youāre in a safe state, go wild. Just not Michigan.
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Yeah but the statement Biden supporting Israel supports second trump term is true as well and anyone with half a brain would see it as obvious. Who do you think is more vested in winning the election?
No, Trump will win if not enough people vote for his only opponent that stands a chance. If thatās you not voting for Biden - for any reason - youāre to blame.
āElephant shit more than bears shit.ā Is technically true. But youāre still talking about shit.
We have a right- and indeed an obligation- to call out our presidentās bullshit. Just because one hypothetical is worse than another, doesnāt mean that Biden and most the rest of the DNC supoorting genocide is okay.
āWell it could be worseā is a cop out.
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1- you donāt know who will win. You donāt even know if theyāll live long enough to win. This isnāt entirely an age thing- thereās enough assholes who absolutely would pull the trigger here. (And Iām not even sure assassinating Trump is immoral. Thatās how fucked yo this all is.
Either presidency is still a hypothetical. Period.
2- TRUMP BEING WORSE DOES NOT JUSTIFY SUPPORTING GENOCIDE.
Seriously. When people protest bidenās (and most every other politicianās) support of genocideā¦ it isnāt about the election. ITS ABOUT THE GENOCIDE.
Stop making excuses. Youāre defending genocide. Youāre complicit in genocide.
No, this is not hypothetical. Either Biden will win, or Trump will. You can protest and throw all the tantrums you like, thatās what the primary is for.
Come November, if you donāt vote for Biden, youāre as guilty as the most ardent MAGA supporter in letting fascism take power.
Incorrect.
The purpose of a primary is meant to select the best candidate possible.
We can argue if a guy whose consistently thrown unconditional support to a genocidal regime is in fact that, but the primary is not to āthrow tantrumsā
And yes, I am pissed that my govenement is currently sending money and weapons to a genocidal regime. I am more than pissed. I expect better of my govnerment.
But being incensed at genocideā¦ isnāt a tantrum.
Canā¦ you do me a favor? Can you just agree that genocide is bad? Or is that too much?
Whatever you want to call it, you go act out in the primary all you like, vote for Barney the dinosaur for all I care. But when it comes to November, you put on your big kid pants, suck it up, and vote for Biden, otherwise youāre as guilty as any other MAGA fanatic.
Soā¦.
We canāt agree that genocide is bad?
Once again: you are talking about a possible future- a very likely future. Protesting the genocide of Gazaās isnāt about what might happen in the future. The protests are about what is happening now.
And what our current, active government is doing to support it. āFirst they came for the Gazans, and I did nothing because Biden was better than Trumpā is not something I want to express later.
Our government is complicit in genocide. Period. It doesnāt matter if the current president is better than the alternative. Itās still complicit in genocide- and because it ostensibly represents me- I have an obligation to tell it to knock it off.
You, on the other hand, are using your right to free speech to enable and defend genocide.
Hey bud, how about you not scream at someone for something they didnāt say? Making up strawmen and screaming at them isnāt going to convince anyone youre worth listening to, let alone convince them to actually to listen to anything you have to say.
strawmen
Thereās a lot of that going around. A lot of us are justifiably pissed off at the Biden admin for funneling our tax dollars into a genocideā¦ but calling that out is just being met with a wave of āif you donāt vote Biden, youāre supporting Trump, which is even worse!ā whichā¦ no shit? We can be pissed off at Biden and simultaneously still willing to vote for him over Orange Hitler Those things arenāt mutually exclusive.
Then pick someone who says something like that to argue with. The person above is just screaming at someone because of something that no one in this thread said.
Hey bud.
How about you actually read what said, instead of repeating those āBiden Goodā macros you think are persuasive.
The problem here is that you seem to think any criticism of Biden is unwarranted because he is not as bad as Trump hypothetically will be.
And yes. At this point in time, it is hypothetical. Nobody here can predict whether or not Trump will win. Or if Biden will win.
Which is all entirely beside the point that people are protesting our current government - not our possible future governmentās support of something most of us find objectionable.
Saying ādonāt protest genocide because Trump will be worseā is a lazy excuse; and fundamentally defending genocide.
Do you support genocide? Do you think whatās happening in Gaza is good?
Do you think Palestinians should be eradicated as a culture and a people?
Because that, right here, right now, is what you are supporting.
Why do you support female genital mutilation? Huh how come youāre not responding? Is it because you love mutilating childrenās genitals that much? Why do you just love to torture children and maim them for life?
Oh hey look, itās not fun to argue with someone who argued against things you didnāt say.
Reread the part where i said not to put words in peopleās mouths and try again asshole.
Thatās amusing.
Yes Iām apposed to genital mutilation. Itās easy to say.
Youāre the one trying to make this about some thing itās not. People are protesting our current governmentās policy towards Israel. That is to say, theyāre protesting our current governmentās support of genocide.
This has nothing at all to do with the upcoming election; and telling people to shut up about it, or Trump might win (or implying it) is a good sign that maybe people find the current policy deeply unpopular.
And yes, what you are doing is in fact defending genocide. So which of us is an asshole here?
Maybe vote uncommitted in primary for pressure since that has literally no effect on the main election?
As an outsider looking in, it feels really odd that this could even be a firm issue for any voter. Like that high horse sailed so long ago, how can you possibly blame the current president for what has been a national policy for 75 years?
Sure, push for a candidate that doesnāt support Israel and dissent as much as you can. But every time I read a comment about āGenocide Joeā it screams Russian propaganda farm.
Gonna cut her some slack since the last time trump was president his sycophants almost kidnapped and executed her.
