Basically, the company had to pay for its own buyout when private equity firms KKL, Vornado, and Bain bought the company for $6.6 billion, mostly with loans.
Because the company then had to pay off those extreme loans, they were forced to sell off their assets and property, which they leased back from the very private equity firms that now owned them.
The same thing happened more recently with Red Lobster and JoAnn Fabrics.
This has become a common thing. It’s assumed brick-and-mortar is dying due to Amazon and Temu and such. It’s not; they’ve been on that path for a long time, and the companies that were going to die to it have already gone. However, it is a popular perception.
Private Equity gets to use the popular perception as a cover for shady ass shit.
Shopko was a midwestern chain of department stores. In their final years, they typically staffed like three people for the whole store. It’s not as big as a Super Walmart or anything, but it’s a sizable store in any case. They had one person on checkout, one in customer service, and one more running around the rest of the store. Maybe one or two more, but suffice it to say, it was deeply understaffed and it felt like it.
Behind the scenes, private equity had been taking out loans against the store’s real estate, gave themselves big bonuses with that money, and left the company as a whole with unaffordable debt. Also, the money being taken out at the register for sales taxes wasn’t actually being paid to the state.
Shopko was murdered. There is a standalone optical division that still operates, but the rest is gone.
Yeah, this is the case for most “public to private” company moves, and other types of private equity acquisition deals. They are all just a massive shell game to liquidate a company’s value and transfer it to those private equity companies. Vulture Capitalism
Comical to read this when I just saw a $50 billion dollar sale of EA going private being bought by private equity firms, haha.
If EA gets bled dry by private equity, it’ll probably be the biggest company to go down that way ever.
EA was down the path of being awful, long before that. But yeah…
I was guessing that it was going to be leveraged as a propaganda outlet given the Kushner and Saudi connections, but it does seem more likely that it’ll just be hollowed out and thrown away.
My first thought as well. Of companies to lose to further “investor” shittery, I can’t say I’ll lose much sleep over EA if that turns out to be the case.
I don’t really know if that’s the same kind of animal though. The Saudi royal family is trying desperately hard to diversify. Into as many different revenue streams as they can. You know to Stave off the coming disaster. So I think maybe they’re actually in it for real with EA, though why you bank on a video game company being a long-term investment I’m not 100% sure. Point is they have so much money now I doubt it’s for a quick profit. They have so many projects right now that are so risky they’re basically burning cash.
When you think about how much money EA’s main soccer title makes from microtransactions alone, it certainly makes sense to buy them out
Assuming the Saudis buy EA out for 55 billion and earnings don’t change much from now on, they’ll recover the expenses in 9 years.
Death Spiral Financing is one of those things that should be shouted from the rooftops by anyone who wants to spread anti capitalism. It so cleanly displays the evil inherent to the system.
vulture capitalism
No other kind. Every major gain is just made by eating a corpse you don’t acknowledge-polluting the air or putting plastics in all our blood or slopping us with malevolent ux and llm’s.
And now they want access to 401Ks
DOGE used this same model on the US government.
Capitalism is not rational
Should have paid them back in Geoffrey Dollars.
below is a reply to a comment I made below, pasting here as I find it crazy how this went down and is allowed.
For those curious I did a little digging. I’m on mobile so won’t be going in and out to add company names etc.
Basically, the private equity firms got together and said let’s buy Toy R Us for $6.6B but we only want to use say 300M of our own money and get a loan for the rest.
Then they bought Toys R Us but made them sell all assets to equity firms which then leased them back to Toys R Us so they could pay back the loans. This means Toys R Us are paying hundreds of million a year to cover loans and can’t put that money into making a better business.
The private equity firms also made Toys R Us issue dividends in the hundreds of millions so private equity can make money.
In the end private equity walked away with over $1B in profit whilst Toys R Us declared bankruptcy with $5B still left to pay.
What a fucking insane system. Like how many people lost their jobs so these ghouls could make some extra cash off its downfall.
And people think I’m crazy for making my life harder by not shopping at places like Amazon or being a pirate and not giving money to Netflix etc.
I feel I am living in crazy land. Like the Uk has all our pensions and shit tied to the damn stock market, ensuring we can never really leave this system.
And people think I’m crazy for making my life harder by not shopping at places like Amazon or being a pirate and not giving money to Netflix etc.
You’re not crazy; you’re smart.
The average person just doesn’t want to accept how stupid they are.
Wasn’t it Bain Capital (Mitt Romney’s old place of work), or am I misremembering?
Yes, that was one of them.
From OP
Basically, the company had to pay for its own buyout when private equity firms KKL, Vornado, and Bain bought the company for $6.6 billion, mostly with loans.
Its best to plan to not have a retirement fund. Plenty of communities just take care of each other instead.
I’m not sure what you mean. We have a state pension tied to the stock market.
I also have a private pension too. I don’t see how not planning for retirement can be beneficial?
The UK state pension is largely a Ponzi scheme, no? Those paying tax now fund those receiving pensions now with some promise that they’ll get returns in the future. The only difference is it’s backed by the currency issuer and they’re pretty up front about it.
I don’t know that I would call it a Ponzi scheme, although I could argue for it based on current trends.
Basically, the everybody pays in to the state pension with the understanding that it pays for retired people. So yes people paying in now are covering those that have retired.
The thing is now though is that birth rates are not keeping up with retirements, understandably as why would you have a child in this shit hole, so that means each year it’s harder and harder to pay for the pensioners.
The above is incredibly funny when you look at this silly anti immigration rhetoric, we need more immigration to sustain old people not less. These fools will be shocked when they ban immigration and retire and the state is like yeah we got nothing.
What’s worse is it isn’t means tested which I would support but many older people don’t as they see it as they paid in expecting it back where I see it as paying in to support those that need it.
So I have two bosses one is amazing and very progressive and has never done wrong by their 6 employees. The other is not so much progressive and is soon to retire. He is selling his house for £500k, has lots in savings already and is taking his state pension because, and I quote “ I paid in so it’s mine”, now I can’t fathom this behaviour as I don’t want more than I need and would happily not take money if I can support myself.
Alas, these are the people that vote so we are fucked.
In a sane world that would be life in prison illegal.
Sadly we live in crazy town.
Wait until you hear about using shorts to drive a company out of business or stock buy backs.
Look up Cellar boxing, you’ll see all the companies that were driven out of business because of this strategy
It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.
Truer now than when Henry Ford said it like a hundred years go.
The SEC exists to shelter Self Regulating Organizations from any threats of democratic governance or law enforcement. Oh ya and to keep up the legalese charade that there literally is no such thing as counterfeit stock (because the Secret Service has purview over counterfeiting for some strange reason)
Fuck the stock market 🖕
The Secret Service has purview over counterfeiting because that’s what it was founded for. More confusing is why they became the presidential protection service from there.
Sweet jesus. How is this not some kind of hyper mega ultra fraud?
the primary shareholders of a company can usually do whatever they please (as they should in the case of some proprietorship) as such can sell whatever assets for whatever price.
Because bankers buy politicians and if people complain they buy news coverage to call the naysayers socialists
I have no idea and it seems insane to me.
I was looking for the same thing in my country, UK, thinking we can’t be as bad as America, but nope many of the companies that have died during my life have been due to LBOs. The world is insane and I don’t see how we can change it.
In the UK I learnt that Asda one of our largest supermarkets is in a similar place due to two brothers doing an LBO to buy it. Now it’s saddled with debt meaning it won’t be able to innovate like Tesco or Sainsbury’s and thus will likely just bleed customers. Makes me wonder why these two brothers with more money than God would want to carry on, like I literally can’t comprehend wanting more than you need. Perhaps I have different motivations as I see time as my most precious asset and will earn less money than I could just for the easier life of being able to chill more and do the things I like.
It is insane. You’re not crazy, or at least if you are we can be crazy together because I also think the whole thing is rotten to the core.
It’s pretty disgusting what the borgeousie get up to and away with. The whole world is broken. How we have decided society is going to work and run is all one big collective illusion anyways; we might as well make the mirage nicer for the majority of us humans instead of scrabbling like crabs climbing over one another to get to the top.
Anyways, I think part of the problem is once you see the illusion there isn’t much of anything to do about it as an individual because there’s so much going on out of your control.
I think that’s a big part of why we’re seeing more anxiety and depression than ever - because we know how we live (particularly in the west but really almost everywhere) is not sustainable, destroys the environment and causes suffering on a global scale but we keep dutifully existing quietly in the system as the cogs we are.
I like all the stuff I have, I like my car and house and standard of living but I don’t know if it would be feasible for the whole world to live like me and I’m not even rich or that well off. That’s the real crazy part. I have some privilege, I know I’m at least better off than half of my fellow Americans … But still I am just a proletariat like every other person working for wages.
What I don’t understand about the whole thing is who ends up holding the bag of all that debt?
Like banks that lend them billions must be intelligent enough to know how private equity takeovers like this work. So if they lend them money, they surely would want to get that off their books asap. But who do they sell it to? I can’t imagine there is any type of reinsurance for this, since insurance providers should know even better.
I imagine some of the debt is to employees and small contractors, but can that really account for such a massive sum?
Companies are valued by earnings-per-share, independent of the assets. So if the P/E ratio is too low the company costs less than its assets and it pays off to sell the parts.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price–earnings_ratio
In this case I heard a rumor that Amazon did it to dominate the toy market, so losses could have been acceptable.
Most debts are owned by the banks and the banks eat it. Then they have to make up the money somewhere else, so the costs go to the next round of borrowers, who then have to charge higher prices, so in the end we the consumer end up paying for it.
Alot of debt gets bundled into bonds or other investment vehicles and sold. So small retail investors, retirement funds, etc end up holding the bag. Sometimes the banks lose, but they can take tax write offs and if the loses are too great, they can often get bailed out by the government.
So the Equity Holders (The Private Equity firms) were largely shielded from risk as they had taken out billions in dividends and they had a small equity state relative to the debt meaning their downside was limited.
The creditors (large banks) were left holding the bag, but they’d had years of interest payments so they wrote off the rest and likely still made some profit.
Employees, suppliers, and landlords. Employees lose their jobs, suppliers get pennies on the dollar for what they’re owed and landlords might have got some money but still not all.
So in short it was the banks, but don’t forget they had years of interest payments and after all they took the risk.
Well, I mean, banks kind of ‘invent’ the money which they hand out as loans…so what do they care, really?
When the pile of bad loans gets to big, they sell those bundled as loot boxes to other banks. When that pile starts stinking too much, they are too big to fail and get bailed out. That’s the circle of life 🪇🎶
Welcome to the house of cards that is globalisation and capitalism.
landlords might have got some money but still not all.
This is assuming that the landlords aren’t also the private equity companies as well. So far as I can tell in long term care/assisted living/skilled nursing facilities, the same parent company owns everything, but the food branch is separate from the nursing branch, is separate from the physical rehabilitation branch, is separate from the admin services, and since they are all separate from the building branch, they are all operating “at a loss since” they have employees to pay. All the money goes to the building branches and everyone else gets told to do more with less.
So we make interest illegal and the whole scam falls apart, got it.
and if you do that most of the economy fails because no one wants a bond that does nothing
The current economy sucks anyway. Houses as investments, line-go-up disposable consumerism, rent-seeking, it’s all fucked if you aren’t born on top.
seems fine for anyone that already has a house, like everyone should (for hundreds of years)
Sadly the only way is a lot more Luigi’s. If more CEO’s start getting wigged off maybe they’ll lobby for change.
Just sad that most people have it just good enough to not want to risk prison forever to murder someone, although if I could get away with it I’d have no issue in pulling the trigger on these ghouls.
The banks can also technically short the stock as well once the buyout was public, knowing how shit the deal was they can make money on the downside at the expense of all the pensions, 401ks etc that had initially bought the stock. There also isnt a limit that prevents shorting the stock more than shares are in existence. Hence why the gamestop situation was close to breaking the whole stock market a few years back when they started turning everything around for the companies bottom line. With the stock now able to make it think a bout a billion more shares over time the out for the short side has been sort of given without completely nuking the market. But as when the shares are diluted is up to the board it allows gamestop to take advantage of the short side to create more cash on hand for themselves threw timing their market offerings to coincide with when swaps that are housing those shorts come due. In the toys r us case the executives and board were happy to take their golden parachute from the buyout and let ordinary people’s pensions and 401ks carry the bag for them in the form of the stock going to zero and eventually being delisted from the market.
Not sure this applies here as it was a private buyout meaning that there would be no stock to short.
They could have shorted it before the buyout to get a better deal, but the banks didn’t buy it the just lent the money.
Also shorting before could be seen as insider trading, right? Not that something being illegal means it wouldn’t happen, but feels like that would be hard to hide.
It’s a cycle I can describe, but cannot understand. A business has some minor decline in sales, or profits, or whatever. Private equity firms convince one group of people this is the biggest disaster, and the company is ruined forever, hardly worth anything. Simultaneously, they convince a second group of people that the company has a strong business model, and will recover soon.
The second group lends the company a ton of money to buy itself from the first group of people, for the private equity firm. Now, the private equity firm tries to make a temporary spike in value, pay themselves large dividends, and sell the (now actually, fundamentally broken) company for as much as they can.
The original shareholders lose. The employees of the business lose. The banks (or their insurance company) lose. Private equity wins.
My lack of understanding is, if I were a bank, I would spot this scam either the first, or second time it happens. Next time Mitt Romney came to ask me for ten billion dollars, I would tell him to pound sand. How has it taken actual professional bankers hundreds of times to (still not) see the cycle?
Likewise, the insurance companies backing some of these loans must know they’ve lost billions on this. Why haven’t they done anything?
The banks get paid first. As long as the company’s assets are large enough, they work with the PE firm to strip anything of value to repay the loans, the the PE firm walks away with whatever’s left.
And the same thing is happening to hospitals all over the US, which should fucking terrify you.
Yeah?
Isn’t that the entire thing that private equity firms do? Buy up companies, sell all their assets to the private equity firm, then have them lease it all back for insane amount until it’s bankrupt.
Makes a whole lot of short term profits, destroys the company and it’s employees. No fucks given
Private equity firms are a cancer (amongst many cancers) on humanity
They killed Karstadt this way, V&D, and I bet a bunch of other department stores too.
It wasn’t always this bad. It started out as a way to improve local businesses. The problem is the internet and all the hype
Ummm private equity firms have been evilly destroying companies since the early eighties at least.
I hate to tell you this but private equity has been a problem long before the Internet went mainstream. I think venture capital firms we’re a product of a post-WWII world trying to capture as much wealth as possible during reconstruction. I’d have to check some sources to be sure of that and I’m really not motivated enough to do it.
For a while they brought down prices and improved service
It only was like that for a short time though
Don’t see how the internet plays a role in firms purchasing stuff then gutting them for profit.
This is like me taking out a loan to buy a car and then expecting the car to make the payment.
And since all the debt is on the company and not the people/organization who bought the company, they don’t suffer any of the repercussions of defaulting on the loans. Why this isn’t illegal is beyond me.
Well, in theory it’s the responsibility of the banks to not make bad loans. If private equity passes on their debt to the company they bought, and then that company goes bankrupt and the private equity walks away free, that’s still the bank’s problem and they’re gonna lose a lot of money. Of course the problem is banks have a pretty bad track record about being disciplined with their loans.
Elementary my dear billwashere, in one word: money.
People don’t notice the leeches, so noone cries out. This enables said private equity leeches to
bribe politiciansmake considerable donations to various political action committees. And believe it or not, politicians like money.Well, you wouldn’t want those politicians to be poor?
Back to the good old corporate raiders like Lorenzo. For a while there we kept them on a leash. Now with the Land of No Consequences and leashes becoming meaningless these leeches are free to buy and pillage as they see fit. The housing market is gonna be destroyed next, wait until they start selling the homes off to shell companies and taking loans to pay for the deteriorating properties and property taxes (which trump has floated getting rid of to keep these hoarders afloat even longer).
The fact that they can buy a company by going into debt and immediately transfer the debt to the company is fucking insane. Maybe we need to figure out how we as individuals can do that and just fucking crash the lending industry entirely? Can I make my house buy itself for me and then “whoopsie, the house can’t pay the bills, guess it will file for bankruptcy and hand me a big ol’ stack of cash”.
That’s how landlords work.
Take loan, buy houses, house has to pay back loan via rent, rent is paid for by renter.
Landlord gets house for free, everything paid by renter.
In this scenartio, the Landlord also owns the maintenance company, so the renter pays the wages of the maintenance advisor and maintenance costs.
As usual, renting is one of the biggest scams society has fallen for.
We only accept it as normal because so many people around us are doing it.
the same happens to most mortgages, namely income goes to the lender and you get a house.
But, you get the equity, and you own the house when (if) you pay off the loan. Renters get nothing.
And the same thing happens to banks for people with mortgages.
They will never, ever give us equal rules willingly. The only way that’s going to happen is if we build a new financial system, immune to their Pinkertons and police.
You will not build a new financial system without structures of power. The best we can do is to understand the structures of power and how to combat them.
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
— Buckminster Fuller
Can I make my house buy itself for me and then “whoopsie, the house can’t pay the bills, guess it will file for bankruptcy and hand me a big ol’ stack of cash”.
2008 called…
What will really shift your thinking is finding out that they have done this to almost all the hospitals in the United States, which is part of the reason healthcare costs have skyrocketed.
Hospitals need more to pay their leases, health insurers need to pay more to feed the hospitals machine, premiums go way up/more services restricted/more cost share (copay etc)
If you think it’s shitty that consumers can’t own anything anymore, they stole your wellbeing services while you were bitching about how little is still on Netflix these days
This is enough reasoning to say that capitalism is the single greatest enemy of mankind. The search for endless profit will kill everyone.
Nono its the best system. All others have failed. You cant have the American dream without capitalism.
/LIES FROM FASCISTS
Capitalism is a great system as long as it’s regulated. It’s been more and more destructive and caused catastrophic shifts in wealth distribution since deregulation started with Reagan
You’re basically saying cancer isn’t so bad as long as it’s just a little cancer and is kept in check. All you need is a few bad actors and everything goes up in flames.
Careful now, they’re about to classify criticism of capitalism terrorism.
The culture of consumption is the greatest threat to humanity.
Capitalism, and even communism, are just means to that end.
I think the real reason they died is because they had high markups and hence, nobody could afford to shop there. The one we had in our next town over was very expensive and even though it was cool, we could never go there because it was expensive. With the high markup comes the low volume, and hence debt. The high markup only works with the most popular of a category, but it still kills your brand if it’s anything more than premium price for premium products. Wallmart and other box stores, and eventually amazon also killed it because it’s a crowded market. Cool concept for a store though. Reminds me of the time before national and international corporatism when you could have little mom and pop stores like that, with hand picked toys that were really cool.
This is a well studied case. It was private equity that killed them.
I don’t know anything about them tbh.
Right. That’s OK, but then why did you blindly assume OP was wrong about the basic facts?
Just basing it on my own experience. I already knew they were going to go out of business even as a kid because they were the most expensive option in the market and the parking lots were always empty. This is when I was a kid though, like 20+ years ago.
This logic in infuriating. You had sourced reasons, and ongoing discussion, but you decided to put forth a baseless theory that attempts to disprove the discussion and studied facts based on your feelings as a child 20+ years ago?
Jesus fuck… Why?
You do realize both can be true? One doesn’t proclude the other.
I think the real reason they died
Then you may want to rewrite this part. Because what I understood was essentially the same as:
Coroner: Gunshot wound in the back of the head. Here is the blood, there is the exit wound. and this is a bullet fragment.
Ari: I think the real reason they died is how they were pricing their labour
Bota: Are you for fuckin’ real right now?
Not at all.
Just go look it up it was a leveraged buy out (LBO) and was the main factor in its collapse.
Edit: For those curious I did a little digging. I’m on mobile so won’t be going in and out to add company names etc.
Basically, the private equity firms got together and said let’s buy Toy R Us for $6.6B but we only want to use say 300M of our own money and get a loan for the rest.
Then they bought Toys R Us but made them sell all assets to equity firms which then leased them back to Toys R Us so they could pay back the loans. This means Toys R Us are paying hundreds of million a year to cover loans and can’t put that money into making a better business.
The private equity firms also made Toys R Us issue dividends in the hundreds of millions so private equity can make money.
In the end private equity walked away with over $1B in profit whilst Toys R Us declared bankruptcy with $5B still left to pay.
What a fucking insane system. Like how many people lost their jobs so these ghouls could make some extra cash off its downfall.
And people think I’m crazy for making my life harder by not shopping at places like Amazon or being a pirate and not giving money to Netflix etc.
I feel I am living in crazy land. Like the Uk has all our pensions and shit tied to the damn stock market, ensuring we can never really leave this system.
FYI, the moment I realized this was copy pasta from before, I stopped reading. Helps to reword your point.
Toys R Us was no more expensive than anywhere else. They charged the manufacturer’s list price, with occasional sales, like everyone else. Perhaps Walmart or Target had the same items at slightly lower prices, but not significantly, and a few aisles of selection couldn’t compete with TRU’s giant stores full of toys.
It’s a shame that a company that held a unique position in the marketplace, was destroyed not by their own bad business practices, but because of the predatory actions of financial sociopaths.
We should note that Toys R Us was also struggling at the time, although they would have had a better chance of success by not having 300-400M a year in debt payments to make; they could have used that to improve customer service and stuff.
I’m not defending the LBO here, just adding a little context.
Toy R Us is still a thing in Canada, you can just go there and get your kid legos like its 2002
It’s still kind of a thing in the USA, you just have to visit a Macy’s department store at the local dying mall. The Toys R Us is a small section in the back.
Which is far more depressing than if the brand was outright dead.
