I’m a raging leftist but I’m getting tired of “deontologists” telling me they refuse to vote for Biden then telling me how great Xi Jinping is.
I have to caulk it up to young people learning about socialism and communism for the first time, but they’re only reading Marx and Lenin.
Like hey guys, they lost pretty hard. Maybe we shouldn’t do exactly the same thing and in fact there’s decades of work outlining what we should do instead?
That’s the charitable interpretation. The less charitable one is astroturfing aiming to further destabilize “the west”
Yes! Their positions and actions are suspiciously very demobilising.
No unity even in the most basic stuff. No willingness to hold a constructive conversation. Things have to be done in their way or you’re labeled an enemy. Doctrine above humanity. Incessant nitpicking.
How do they intend to build socialism if they can’t even have an honest, good faith conversation?
A “leftist” earlier this week told me that Joe Biden is responsible for Dobbs because it happened in 2022. That’s a cosplaying Republican. The red hat will be back on his head end-of-day November 3rd.
It was crazy the amount of red scare shit circling when I started on Lemmy. It was like they were trying to radicalize people by pitting them against the “crazy leftists.”
God, please never let McCarthyism make a come back. What a waste of our time and energy.
The problem is there are crazy “leftists” on lemmy. Your instance defederated from the instances home to the worst of them, so you probably didn’t get to experience it.
Imagine people the adhere to some of the worst parts of right-wing fascism, but with “leftist” branding.
I can understand looking back to them for some useful stuff. “Commieblock” housing served a purpose at the time, for example. They brought huge masses of people into an urban environment with indoor plumbing, electricity, and climate control, which were not a given in their previous living situations. They were meant as an interim solution to last a few decades. For what they set out to do, they were a great success. The only problem was that the followup to better options was never done.
But the Leninist/Maoists can never leave it at pulling out successes like that. It’s almost always “America bad”, “Holodomor isn’t real”, or “Cuba only sucks because of sanctions”.
you kinda had me in the first half, ngl.
america is bad, research by anticommunist historians after the fall of the soviet union lead to the irrefutable conclusion that holodomor isn’t real (holodomor means intentional genocidal famine, not just that there was a famine that lots of people died in) and cuba has problems but the main reason it sucks is because of sanctions.
Famine because of bad policy is not a win, either. That’s the best case interpretation. However, there are plenty of tankies who will tell you there were no mass deaths at all.
may i see the tankies saying there was no mass death during the famine? I have never in many years of interacting with communists heard someone say that.
Sure, I’ll just wade through a decade of Reddit comments to find some to satisfy your curiosity.
Maybe don’t make shit up then if you don’t have examples
Fuck man, even Marx and Lenin don’t cotton to the common tankie arguments about all non-socialist movements being the same.
This is why I pull largely from my half crazed redneck version of leftism. Cant make an authoritarian out of someone who doesnt listen to aurhority outside of his fucken clan. I will listen to cops and be polite because I dont want the dumbfuck gorilla with a gun to shoot me. Makes it harder to spread the ideas of militant unions.
Is what we’ve been doing in the US working very well? Maybe the democrat party should look at why nobody is fired up to vote for them, even though the alternative is people like trump. It should be very easy to appeal to normal people, but even with cartoonish opposition, the democrats can’t bring themselves to much better. All I’m saying is you’re asking some tiny minority of the electorate (socialists) to introspect, when you’re better off asking the same of the people and parties that actually have power.
Cynical tinfoil hat moment but — making concessions to voters to beat the GOP means giving away valuable capital (physical and political) that those at the top would rather retain for themselves. It would certainly explain how both sides only ever get worse instead of better, and how ejections continuously come down to 51/49. They don’t have to be any good, they just have to be 1% better than the other one. A race to the bottom.
Now realize that the people at the top win no matter which party is in power.
“Democrat party”
Good point.
IYKYK
CMYK
Conservatives are just shuffling cards.
You’re not a “raging leftist” if you vote for Biden. At least vote PSL or Green
This post is about you, you idiot.
Your vote for Dems is what endangers the vulnerable like those in poverty. You consent to wealth and income inequality with your vote, and can only blame yourself for not improving your country.
What do you think happens if I do that?
Actual progress towards changing the Democratic party instead of consenting to it’s right wing policies that are enabled by your vote.
I did that in 2016 and it didn’t progress shit. It made it worse like it will if we do that this year. I organized and pushed leftists in primaries and I was beaten by “moderates.” Specifically, nobody had a chance against the incumbent. It fucking sucks but I don’t want a declared fascist putting more assholes on judicial benches or pushing anti-trans, anti-women policies.
I’m with you on both parties sucking. But please, grow up. If you want to help, do it before the nominees are set. And don’t drag others into your misguided principles.
I did that in 2016 and it didn’t progress shit.
Did your lazy ass do anything else?
If you want to help, do it before the nominees are set.
Jill Stein is a good candidate in a historically weak election for the ruling class.
I’ve gotten dozens of people to vote Green in my state, what have you done?
“There are dozens of us.” lol
wtf have I done? I already said. Organized and gotten people elected to school boards, city council, and our mayor too. We primaried for state and federal elections but didn’t get our candidates. We didn’t pout and waste our votes on people who had no chance of getting elected. We sucked it the fuck up and tried to make sure Republicans didn’t get elected.
I’ve been looking through your comments and have confirmed you are a fake. Where can I see any evidence of your “efforts” to help the Green party?
I don’t believe you at all. Any person informed enough to do what you said knows voting for Democrats only makes out situation worse by consenting to neoliberal capitalism. None of the hundreds of people affiliated with the Green party I’ve met have said that, so you’re lying.
How did you come to that conclusion?
Decades of your strategy failing every time to move the Dems to the left.
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It hasn’t though. Dems aren’t Communists, but they’ve moved slowly toward the left over decades.
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Even if strategy A is a total failure, that’s no indication that strategy B will succeed just because it isn’t strategy A. That’s a ridiculous conclusion. It’s like saying “Bloodletting didn’t cure my cancer, therefore healing crystals will!”.
they’ve moved slowly toward the left over decades.
Absolutely false. Dems have moved to the right for decades since Clinton’s attacks on the working class with NAFTA. Obama called himself a moderate republican and governed like it. Read “Listen, Liberal” by Thomas Frank for a detailed description of this.
Even if strategy A is a total failure, that’s no indication that strategy B will succeed just because it isn’t strategy A
Then try it and see, that’s how it works. Instead you want to consent to the Democratic party’s right wing policies without getting any concession for your vote. ___
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Project 2025, stupid. Letting Trump win means no progressive wins again in this country. Anti progress.
Letting
TrumpBiden win means no progressive wins again in this country.Imagine thinking you’re defending democracy by voting for someone you don’t want. LOL
Wow, you can type the opposite thing that someone said and pretend that you have a point. How incredibly stupid of you.
What exactly is Biden’s plan to avoid letting a progressive win in the country ever again? Because Trump is the one with Project 2025.
Imagine thinking you’re defending democracy by voting for someone you don’t want. LOL
I, on the other hand, express democracy by voting for a candidate that I support, Jill Stein.
What exactly is Biden’s plan to avoid letting a progressive win in the country ever again?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/dnc-war-third-party-candidates-rcna143290
You’re not a “raging leftist” if you vote for Biden. At least
vote PSL or Greenuse a brutal domestic terrorism campaign as leverage to blackmail politicians into overturning first-past-the-post as part of a multi-prong strategy that, even as extreme as you are, still includes a pragmatic hedge in the form of a vote for the lesser of two evilsOf course nobody should be terrorizing anyone. What I’m riffing off of is a perspective someone shared that basically you don’t protest with a vote for a loser, you protest by agitating for systemic change.
In the meantime while the broken system is in place, you feed it a minimally shitty input.
use a brutal domestic terrorism campaign
The fuck? Just vote for third parties where did you get that bullshit from?
In the meantime while the broken system is in place, you feed it a minimally shitty input.
You consent to this system with a vote for Dems.
Reasonable people can definitely disagree on this.
One thing that may be interesting to think about: some percentage of the time an argument is made disingenuously to try to siphon off votes. An entirely genuine recommendation of an identical strategy is fair – as I said reasonable people can disagree – but perhaps calls for some introspection.
It’s too bad when your strategy mirrors that of your worst enemy! So the far leftist could perhaps instead chain himself to legislators’ doors (vehement objection to the system) while consenting to acknowledge reality with a disgusted harm reduction vote for the marginally less-bad elderly man.
Do you think being incredibly stupid is a prereq for being a raging leftist or something?
Do you think being incredibly stupid is a prereq for being a raging leftist or something?
It is a prereq for voting for Biden
No, understanding how the voting system works isn’t stupid
You misunderstand the voting system because you vote for someone you don’t like.
The best available choice isn’t always one that you want to make. It’s fine to hate the idea of voting strategically, I hate it too, but it’s naive to think you can positively affect the system by going with the option you want the most.
Voting for someone you disagree with is not voting strategically, it’s voting against your interests based on what you assume others will do.
I guess I’ll say it for the record but Kris Mayes is a woman.
Hard to believe I had to scroll down so far for this. I heard HER on NPR this morning, did a doubletake when reading the post. Thank you. Is it surprising it’s a woman protecting women from the dictates of long-dead ignorant men? No, although sadly it’s not a given. Is it surprising an AG is assumed to be male? Even by a person who supports what they do? Just shows how far we have yet to go.
“Sadly” it’s not a given?
Please tell me you don’t mean to imply that protecting women from the dictates of long-dead ignorant men is only good if a woman is doing it?
No sorry, I meant it’s sad there are some horrible right-wing women in positions of power.
👍
Also 280 votes, but simple math is hard for Americans.
What’s wrong with that??
Nothing’s wrong with it, the post just said “the man preventing people from being punished”, emphasis mine.
Ah ok read your comment with different energy thanks for clarifying
Not my comment, but no worries.
No it’s yours now, as a gift
Thanks, I will treasure it.
Some of those who work forces are the same who burn crosses: many that advocate for not voting from a “progressive” point of view are actually the ones who wouldn’t be in power if you did. They think it’s hilarious when we don’t vote, and they love it.
Yep
I used to be alarmed that people were being taken in by this stuff, but I now think the overwhelming majority of people saying it are just shill accounts. For a couple of different reasons, I think the percentage that are actual human accounts that sincerely believe it is extremely small.
I notice they’ve pivoted to just general nihilism about the US economy and the state of things as of a few weeks ago – I think they might have concluded, as I did, that expressing this type of viewpoint and doing such a bad job of it and getting unanimously yelled at in the comments was actually having the opposite effect, highlighting to people how important it is to vote and how it absolutely makes a difference.
I see a lot of people saying “go vote” and not making any effort to understand why non-voters stay home. A lot of the comments here are great examples of that.
That kind of dogmatism is common on political issues, of course, but that doesn’t make it reasonable.
And I understand that people feel strongly. Who wouldn’t? That’s why it’s even more important to try to discuss things. Or not. Sometimes flame wars are entertaining, if not productive. Depends on one’s mood.
This is something that I’ve noticed is worse on Lemmy than it was on Reddit, and it was already pretty bad on Reddit. Insulting people doesn’t get them to support your viewpoint. To convince disillusioned voters to hold their nose and vote blue no matter who, they have to be convinced why their individual vote has an impact in a system where the electoral college can (and regularly does) vote contrary to the popular vote. They have to be shown that it’s worth participating in a system that makes progress slow and difficult but allows evil to be done quickly and with great impact.
They have to be given hope, not fear.
Thank you for your perspective. It’s nice to know that you think I couldn’t possibly be a real human being just because I’m a financially impoverished minority in these United States and sick of being told that I need to vote for someone else’s option time and again because it’s the best possible option. Every time the leftist majority makes a decision I want, they don’t look for concessions to bring me in. They just beat me over the head with fearmongering.
If you want voters, appeal to them. I’m not responsible for the message put out by the party not convincing me.
What do you suppose trump will do to help you?
Different user, but it’s obvious to anyone who’s been paying attention that he will just give more tax breaks to the rich and corporations. The wealth divide will grow even further.
And Trump will further destroy protections that Americans rely on.
Most pollution sources in the U.S. are placed in close proximity to residential areas in which POC & impoverished people reside. Trump crippled the EPA and as a result air quality for said people dropped like a rock that was already at the bottom of the ocean.
This isn’t fear mongering, this is the shit we witnessed the first time around. The second time will be just as bad at a minimum.
He’ll also set forth many of the components of Project2025 which, if you haven’t read, is scary to say the least.
I have, and it is terrifying.
Even if Trump doesn’t get elected, eventually another republican will. And with goals of theirs looking like that, I don’t know if this country will be safe in the foreseeable future.
Hopefully by Zoomers (currently aged 12 – 27) pushing back hard on it when they actually vote in large numbers. Because, you know, young people don’t vote.
Thus all the social media PsyOps. Like it or not, TikTok is critical to the future of our country.
I’m not sure you replied to the right person.
I did. you’re claiming voting is pointless, but all abstaining can lead to is trump
I never said Trump would help me. So your question is irrelevant.
Your actions will help elect him. 2+2=4 whether you’re acknowledging it or not
You could join an organization of people trying to fix the system for you and people like you. You’d probably find quite a lot of common cause with the people there, if the Democratic establishment is too worker-hostile for you even in its Bidenized form (which I could understand).
Thank you for the resource. I’ll look into it!
Yah dude. The disillusionment with the current US governmental and economic system, I get that. It makes sense to me.
Is the economy okay when everyone knows their costs are close to double what they were five years ago? Like that you lost a vote (however small the margin) literally shows your view is unpopular. But please keep hoping you know and want better for people without doing the work and ignoring the will of people.
Did you miss the primaries? There’s more than just the president, you know.
What an unhelpful comment.
“I’m in this Class Project. The whole class is in on it and every time we do a class project half the class tells me that I have to agree with them or else the other half decides how to do the project. I try telling them I will agree with them if they’re open to concessions to me. They just yell harder and threaten that it will be all my fault if I don’t agree with them.”
“Have you tried participating in Group Projects?”
Your waiting for concessions reminds me of Martin Niemoller’s “First they came for”. You’re waiting for specific focus on your needs, but in the meantime by abstaining from the process you are enabling others suffering.
You sound politically self-centered. It’s fair to feel that way. But perhaps you should participate so that you can sway the process towards a side that is attempting the opposite of harm.
You could work to better the world you live in with the tools at your disposal (voting, for the lesser of two evils). If you don’t, then you only have yourself to blame when no one helps you.
Did it my entire political existence. I’m the one that wasn’t helped. This is your party having no one to blame but themselves for how this is turning out at this point.
So your life would be better if every time you voted the other politician won? That seems crazy.
Things are not great in the US (and worldwide). But I always get pushback when I encourage people to vote and remind them that this is not North Korea or Russia, your vote still actually matters! Whoever you are, you can help prevent your country’s slide into fascism…
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Tell me you’re not a woman in Arizona who has an ectopic pregnancy, without telling me etc
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There’s an image which explains what I’m talking about
It is somewhere
It’s very near
If you search, I think you will be able to locate it. Don’t give up
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And yet, you’re such a genius at political science that you’ve got essential insights on how voting works that the rest of us aren’t privy to. It is a mystery.
When… it is accurately counted and applied? That should be a low bar, but dictators in the aforementioned countries regularly win with more than 100% of the total vote percentage.
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I can explain it to you, I can’t understand it for you.
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Bot, troll, whatever: blocked.
Hah you’re doing the thing
Killing in the name of
I wonder how many get this reference.
But voting only determines which face of aristocracy is in power?
If someone unacceptable wins, it gets fiat discarded.
Not even hypothetical. Remember that time a bland vaguely well intentioned nerd won an election against the grandson of the guy who was gonna be German ambassador in the business plot government, and they just threw the whole election out and gave it to the third generation fascist oligarch guy?
Do real action, and while theres nothing wrong with spending five minutes to vote, remember it is not politics and won’t save you, get you infrastructure, or stop a bullshit war. Not ever.
it is not politics and won’t save you, get you infrastructure, or stop a bullshit war. Not ever.
–
Not ever.
That shit was only possible thanks to “both sides” horseshit keeping turnout low and results close.
You are part of the problem.
So admit the points are made up and the rules don’t matter?
I wish you people meant things when you say words.
That’s my line!
‘Your actions cause the problems you’re pointing to to excuse your actions.’
‘So you admit there’s problems.’
Shoo, enabler.
So you’re saying the rules are made up and the points don’t matter
Therefore we need even more points than the rules say we need
And the guy making that an unpalatable moral
compromisegetting raped for six hours straight, instead of a thing you pester your roommates to hop in he car and grudgingly take an hour off to do, that guy isn’t at all at fault.You shit the bed and failed to fight for the rules, you offer me a shit deal I don’t even want, and you scold me for not lifting a finger? Fuck you.
If Al Gore had won Florida outright, there’d be no recount, no Brookes Brothers riot, no 5-4 decision cancelling democracy, and quite possibly no September 11th attacks. Plus eight extra years of giving a shit about climate change instead of openly funneling no-bid contracts to a third-gen oligarch’s decrepit oil-baron vice president.
All of that evil came from one fucking state being within 500 votes. A situation caused by inane “douche v turd” denial that politics matter, god dammit.
Of course, alternate-universe super geniuses would whine about VP Lieberman trying to outlaw video games or whateverthefuck. I guess that’s as bad as starting two land wars in Asia Minor.
Also gore did win Florida though. The only reason he ‘didn’t win outright’ is because of tampering and tantrums by fascists.
He won. He won by all your fucking rules and if elections mattered, he would’ve been president.
One vote, 500 votes, because George bush didn’t win by any votes, and he got to be president.
“My shit doesn’t work so we just gotta do it harder and if it doesn’t work its your fault for not committing” you know I could say the sane thing about direct action, but that actually does work.
Outright winners don’t need recounts. There’d be nothing to tamper with. No opportunities for fascists on the ground to do direct action, or fascists in power to ignore the close results and make up whatever they like. The election would simply have been won.
But that didn’t happen.
And the reason it didn’t happen is that a lot of people stayed home, thanks to bullshit like yours.
He did win outright! Al gore won the election outright!
“The rules are made up and the points don’t matter so anyone who causes us to not get as many points as possible is a Nazi”
And also the people making giving you points a massive moral compromise that makes my stomach turn isnt at all to blame.
“Outright” is not decorative. Words… mean things. Al Gore won the election, technically. But the margin was so slim that there was a recount. There would not be a recount, if he had won the election… unambiguously.
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“I don’t think poor minorities who are tired of picking ‘the least evil option’ exist.”
Well you can kindly go fuck yourself.
Valid emotions behind a stupid decision don’t make it less stupid.
Thanks. Suddenly I want to support your candidate. The scales have fallen from my eyes. You have enlightened me. I’m forever grateful. How could I not have realized that the decision was “stupid”? I needed no rationalization or evidence, just a person thinking I’m stupid on the internet!
I hear you and want to be on your side during the revolution. I just don’t want a revolution. Conditions are bad right now but violent revolt is a coin flip. The people who will suffer most are the most vulnerable. The children that witness it will suffer for it their entire lives. If we did win, the only faint glimmer of hope will be future generations don’t squander it like their fathers and their fathers fathers and their fathers fathers fathers…
I’m sorry my compassion cripples me from making the extreme but arguably understandable choice of uprising.
We both know you would never suffer having your dumbass opinions changed, you have too much tied up in this. It’s why you’re being so emotional. Maybe you should take a break and go outside.
Relax my friend. Derision is all they know how to use. They were yelled at by MSM until they bought it, and now they want you to see it too. But this is the only way they can speak. Talking down at you with nebulous and broad truthy statements is all they know how to do. Nuance and questioning their faith cannot sweat them, for now derision and arrogance is their “love language”.
So sure, it makes me frustrated too, but have pity not anger, if you can. It’s not like they know any different.
This just emphasizes to me that every vote matters. Sure, both parties are terrible and the chance of a third party making any headway, nevermind winning an election is, at best, unlikely.
But not voting is being complicit in what comes next. Good or bad, you’re okay with whatever happens.
Harm reduction through voting is surreal, but it’s required at this point. Don’t be a filthy fucking collaborator, go vote.
They are both imperfect but only one is legitimately terrible. I’m actually pretty tired of everyone feeling the need to qualify this sentiment, as if the Democrats haven’t been behind basically every bit of progress in the US going back a century or more.
It’s like someone who keeps pointing out “Yeah, but we’re also running low on food!” on an spacecraft that is almost out of air.
True, these are both problems, but one is a MUCH bigger immediate threat and needs to be solved before we can spend time on the other, and doing nothing simply isn’t the correct option.
* 50 years or more
Not that I’m disagreeing with your thesis as applied to the modern day, but pre-Lyndon Johnson, the Democrats were the racist party. There was a massive sea change during the era of Nixon, when the Democrats decided after quite a bit of heated internal debate that they couldn’t possibly stomach depending on the support of the segregationists, whatever the cost, and the Southern Strategy scooped all the for real lynch-mob enthusiasts all up for Nixon. Except for Carter’s brief flirtation with actual human decency, which the US isn’t okay with for some reason, the Democrats got accustomed to losing elections for quite a while, until Clinton decided to make a pact with the neoliberal bastards since all the actual progressives were so ground down into not-voting-land that they weren’t even worth appealing to anymore. That worked and that set the tone which has continued to the modern day of slight steady progress under Democrats versus absolute naked fascism under the Republicans (accelerating year by year to its current breakneck pace.)
Side note, if you want to have your heart broke a little bit, read Hubert Humphrey’s speech at the DNC in NINETEEN FUCKING FORTY EIGHT, where he calls out the Democratic party for their acceptance of racism:
My friends, to those who say that we are rushing this issue of civil rights, I say to them we are 172 years late. To those who say that this civil-rights program is an infringement on states’ rights, I say this: The time has arrived in America for the Democratic Party to get out of the shadow of states’ rights and to walk forthrightly into the bright sunshine of human rights.
He was still around in 1968, in the literal bloody battle, inside and outside the convention hall, for what the Democrats were going to be. They never fulfilled their promise completely, and they still haven’t, and that year it cost them the presidency, just like it did in 2016.
I say this 1,000% agreeing that Biden has represented a big step forward and accomplished some genuine impressive things, and that voting for him in November is an affirmative good thing and not just a way to prevent Trump’s end of the world. But the Democrats had to be dragged kicking and screaming by their progressive wing into doing good things, just as they have to be now on Israel among some other issues.
The difference is that they can be dragged into good things, which is enough. And they’ve done pretty much all of the progress the country has made since 1976; I’ll fully agree with you there.
You need a different voting system for third parties to be viable
I agree. The problem is getting a new voting system to be implemented. Neither of the two parties want third parties to get a decent shot at dethroning them, so the two parties right now, are not going to willingly go for a new voting system since the current one ensures that they only have one rival during elections.
It doesn’t benefit either party, so neither is going to agree to change it.
Yes ok but still…
Genuinely not trying to be a dick, but I don’t understand what your response means?
The response means, “I agree, but it’s not relevant to the topic at hand.”
Yes, we need a better system. In the meantime, we need to work with what we have.
OK. The op mentioned voting third parties so my comment was a response to that. Thanks for explaining thou
Wasn’t sure at first but you brought me home safe in the second half
Been arguing with a tankie about this, decided to stop after they said a civil war and another genocide was preferable to voting for Biden because he supports Israel. Yeah ok bud
Yeah see, I don’t care for genocide. Genocide is not very cash money at all. So, see, in opposition to genocide, I’m gonna sit over here have a preference for a different not cash money genocide, you know, not really but yeah. Oh, and I’ve read accounts of war. I can handle it, I’m well read on the topic. Blood, guts, spit, and ass aren’t that scary. With all of my experience reading about war, I’m practically a shell shocked WWI vet anyway, hehe.
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
I’m absolutely shocked that my comment calls for a /s.
Like, have things got so bad that obvious satire isn’t obvious anymore?
Like, have things got so bad that obvious satire isn’t obvious anymore?
You must be new here.
“President stares directly at Sun” isn’t satire anymore.
Ok, yeah. Haha. What a moment that was. God bless former president (hopefully forever) Donald J. Trump. Haha.
Yes, they have. I took it as satire but I can easily see people actually believing it.
Hell, just yesterday there was a guy still arguing that masks didn’t really make a difference for COVID. That improved hygiene, lock downs/isolation, and social distancing was what made all the difference.
I then made a comparison to seat belts, airbags, and bicycle helmets and he then made arguments against those too. I just left the “conversation” at that point. I’m really hoping it was just a bot. The responses were pretty long.
It was pretty obvious to me, but I’ve certainly missed /s before, so…
Don’t worry I understood your comment was satire but honestly it’s not far off from the tankie I was arguing with.
As if they would be there in the frontlines when shit hits the fan. It shows very clearly they don’t risk much (and lack the most basic level of empathy) if they really think Trump and Biden are the same. Ask our trans comrades. Or homeless people. Or journalists.
In abstention, they just found a way of feeling good about doing nothing at all. Voting is literally the least you could do and they won’t do even that.
Not to mention that the less people think their votes are worth, the more every individual vote is actually mean.
If you have two elections, one with a 40% turnout and one with an 80% turnout, in the one where 40% of people voted, each voter was as important as two voters in the 80% one.
important
What do you mean by this precisely?
Is this some kind of new annoying bot? I refuse to believe a real person could be this stupid.
He’s trying to derail discussion.
I think they are a very, very funny and clever troll. (sarcasm)
I checked their posting history and, nope, they’re just a moron.
I mean the fewer people vote, the more power those who do vote end up having.
Your country’s youth didn’t vote? Enjoy the regressive concervatives that the old people elected taking away minority rights, reproductive rights, LGBT rights.
power
What do you mean by this precisely?
What do you mean by this precisely?
What do you mean by this precisely?
Call the zoo, the sea lion escaped!
I mean the ones who vote choose who makes decisions and passes laws.
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Are you okay?
He is not ok.
The outcome of the election, by vote percentage, is altered more by one vote if the total vote is 400 than it would be if the total vote was 800.
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Impactful.
2.4 MILLION PEOPLE… Why the fuck is every goddamn election 50/50!? Why the hell is it always the fucking razors edge!?
I’m no math guy but I feel like statistically it shouldn’t be possible for almost every goddamn election to be 50/50… 49/51… For fucks sake…
It didn’t used to be that way. Big blowouts used to be common.
I think it’s a result of the GOP holding on to electoral legitimacy purely through electoral tricks which are expensive / criminal to a pretty large degree, since except for a little violent minority, almost all of the country has moved on from supporting them or anything they stand for. They don’t want to expend more money or risk than is needed, so they’ll do more or less the minimum that seems like it’ll let them hold on to power. Even that isn’t really working that well anymore, and so their grip is slipping, and with Trump now running the show and demolishing the RNC’s effectiveness just as thoroughly as he does everything else he touches, all bets are off for the upcoming election.
I think they’re planning to move to simple explicit violence during this election, since that’s all that is left if they want to avoid defeat, but you can’t completely write off how effective their propaganda is at convincing people.
The propaganda has always been my gripe. I definitely blame people for having such hate in their hearts that it works on them, but it’s the propagandists that twist reality in a way that make it “logical” for the average voter to believe their candidate is the “one who can save us.”
I don’t believe my father is that hateful, but boy did Fox News really get to him as far as “evil Democrats.” His arguments are always economic, he doesn’t care one way or the other about trans issues, immigration, etc, but he’ll eat up anything Fox has to say about “whales dying due to wind powered generators.”
Yeah. I really don’t like the mindset that Trump voters are evil or racist, they fully understand what he’s about and they want it. A tiny percentage of them are that way; most are not. In my experience, Trump supporters I’ve talked to have been victimized by extremely powerful extremely expensive / well produced propaganda that’s created this whole alternate reality in their minds that’s extremely convincing, and they’re just trying to do the right thing within that reality.
I don’t know what the solution to that is, but treating them as bad people (and particularly, ignoring or downplaying the economic / societal abandonment of them that created legitimate anger and resentment which the propaganda can play into) is definitely not the answer.
I’m sorry, but those people have access to the exact same information I do. Maybe at first it was understandable that some people got taken in by it, but at this point there is no mistaking what Trump stands for, and anyone who continues supporting him is outright malicious or so ego driven they can’t possibly admit a mistake and will definitely follow him to untold atrocities.
I hate the terms “both sides” and “America is divided” because it implies that there is some form of symmetry to this madness. This is not the case. Trump supporters can come back to earth any time they want, but I am absolutely not going to meet them halfway to their shitty fascist endgame, even if that means we get another decade of milquetoast liberal democrats.
I’m sorry, but those people have access to the exact same information I do.
No they don’t. Or rather, the ones I’ve talked with extensively had no idea what was going on; media they genuinely trusted had given them this very incomplete, bizarre, and specifically constructed view of the world that was perfectly believable to them, but which bore absolutely no resemblance to reality. In particular it even has specific features to make it harder to be able to break yourself out of, make you resist learning new information that might challenge it. If you haven’t had your brain inside that type of box or talked extensively with people who did it’s sometimes hard to appreciate how pervasive and reality-defining it can be.
So like think of all those guys who went down to the border expecting there to be this army of Mexicans coming over and terrorizing the whole town, and they were ready to go down and help sign up for their patriotic duty to help, and they were surprised and confused when they got there and it was just a normal town. It’s not like they were like “oh okay let me start shooting any Mexicans I see on the street because that’s my main goal” – they had a perfectly humane reason for being there, in their minds. They had a perfectly humane response (like “wtf these guys lied to me, what even is going on here”). It’s easy to laugh at them because they were so wrong, but they really believed it. Because all the news they watch and all their friends they talk to and all the internet they observe told them that’s what’s going on.
I definitely will agree that there’s a way-too-large minority that’s like “hey I always wanted to shoot Mexicans / shoot up the Ramadan celebration / kill my family member who I suspect of being a Democrat.” I’m not trying to give everyone a free pass. I’m saying that the root of it for a lot of the rank and file is being duped, not being evil.
(Not that that makes them any less dangerous of course)
I hate the terms “both sides” and “America is divided” because it implies that there is some form of symmetry to this madness. This is not the case.
Fully agree on this part. The movement as a whole and its leaders are extremely dangerous and evil, and the media for the most part is looking for any excuse to avoid saying “these guys are Nazis WTF how do we stop them,” and “both sides” is one convenient excuse.
Trump supporters can come back to earth any time they want
Well, but they can’t. Not on their own. They’re either going to realize the reality through some outside force helping them see the truth, or they’re going to keep growing in numbers and fervor until their leaders can use them to enact a for-real fascist takeover.
So these guys who went to the border… Once they realized it was all fake, they swore off this media and stopped voting Republican?
Some of them, yeah. Not all, and maybe that’s a pretty valid reason to criticize their moral courage. But Jordan Klepper has done some pretty fascinating interviews with e.g. Nikki Haley supporters who have realized what a monster Trump is.
(Some of whom say they’ll maybe still vote for him…)
In my experience, it’s mostly been the “You’re one of the good ones!” type of racist that gets sucked in and consider it reasonable.
As in, without some seed of racism/misogyny/etc that propaganda fertilizer would mean nothing.
But that’s my experience with magats I know.
I like the cut of your jib! It’s too often I see blanket statements about all Republicans are Nazis, racist, etc. You can’t understand your opposition or why they might believe what they believe if you just see everyone as cartoon evil.
I like the idea that “no person is the villain of their own story.” As you say, they for the most part believe they are doing the right thing according to the information they’ve been subjected to. It’s an incredibly difficult problem especially as we understand the importance of a free press.
No person is the villain in their own story, yet I see people blatantly run red lights nearly every day. Most people know perfectly well the shit they do is atrocious.
In Arizona it’s simple. The Democrats are rising and the Republicans are falling. If the Arizona State Republicans don’t make a substantive change it will go back to blowouts, just in favor of Democrats instead.
In Arizona it’s because the Democrats are rising. Elections used to be blowouts for Republicans.
If it’s a huge Democratic turn out in year X, then there’s going to be a lot of Dem voters that say “well, my vote doesn’t really matter so why bother” in year X+1. And vice versa.
So the turnout is going to edge closer and closer to equilibrium over time.
It’s because it’s all fake and designed to make you think you have a chance and that things are decided fairly. Your TV isn’t cheap because it’s subsidized by ads from whatever media company. It’s cheap because the media keeping you in line is the most cost effective tool they can come up with. Prices are determined by how much you’re pacified by the product rather than “market forces”.
Problem is even if the attorney general doesn’t prosecute, local
courtsprosecutors can. We need votes for local elections THE MOST, so please vote for every small thing.Anyone who genuinely believes that voting doesn’t matter should ask themselves why conservatives ALWAYS make sure to vote, come hell or high water.
They’re brainwashed into believing they’re affecting something. The outcomes are decided by the powerful who are getting them no matter what numbers they show you with the TVs that are allegedly subsidized by ads rather than how much they decide control over your media exposure is worth.
go home, putin worshipping comrade.
Go fuck yourself random unrelated insult maker.
how does Putin’s taint taste?
Not voting as a means to show dissatisfaction is probably the dumbest fucking thing I’ve ever seen people do. And I say this knowing people willing vote for Trump.
They are at least voting.
It’s like the people who try to run from the cops and then once they get caught and asked why they did it, they say “because I didn’t want to go to jail.” My bro you have articulated the problem and I get it, but the solution you have chosen is going to make it quite a lot worse.
Maybe people who don’t vote are not trying to express dissatisfaction. Maybe they feel like there are more productive uses of their time.
(I usually vote. But in my area, my preferred candidates have no serious chance of winning. Meh. Everyone’s equal on election day, but only if they’re in a swing state (or district).)
Yeah because it means you actually think votes have some correlation with outcomes. Pretty dang stupid.
Voting is the same as the trolley problem. You can make a conscious choice between two bad outcomes, but if you do nothing then one of those outcomes will happen anyway.
The trolley problem is usually a useful tool and nothing more, but it’s actually a great analogy for voting. You have two choices. Let the trolley continue or change its path. You may have different reasons for your choices, but those are the only two real choices. You can leave a note on the lever expressing your displeasure, but it still doesn’t get pulled. Not pulling it is as much a choice as pulling it. You’re a participant either way.
You’re a participant on the same ethical extent as a jigsaw killer victim. Someone else making fucked up circumstances around you doesn’t morally implicate you for anything.
Except there’s not really a correlation between me pulling the lever in the voting booth and something happening.
Even if I vote as hard as I can the more bad thing can still happen because our system has big problems.
When people say “both sides are the same” they’re coming from a point of frustration with the system in general.
Signed,
An anarchist who’s had to pull the lever for a capitalist in every election he’s ever voted in.
Honestly, if leftist spaces on the internet weren’t so infested with insufferable ML campists, I feel like we could actually move the Overton window a bit more among progressive liberals. Libertarian left ideas are pretty popular when presented in the right context. The thing which turns your average person off is the historical association with autocracy and oppression that MLs cling to for some reason.
I have been pretty vocal about this, but I just run into a sectarian wall over and over again. I wish more like-minded people would spend more time challenging ML orthodoxy and less time bashing liberals. I honestly feel like most liberals aren’t nearly as far gone as your average Lenin simp.
I always say, and I’m fairly confident it’s true, they’re more pro-autocracy than they are pro-leftist. They will defend a dictator when they harm people before they back the people being harmed. That’s not leftist. Leftism is on the side of the people being oppressed. They absolutely do more harm than good by making people think being left they have to agree with that group, but they’re a very loud minority.
While I don’t disagree that MLs online cause harm, it would be remiss of me not to point out that the root of the issue is decades of intergenerational indoctrination during the cold war that anything democratically socialist was directly equivalent to autocratic communism. There is a deep, cultural cognitive dissonance that occurs in the US about things like socialised medicine and welfare that I just don’t think tankies online influence as much as you think they do.
That’s true. I guess you could expand the analogy to a very heavy lever that needs a lot of people to pull, and if not enough people pull it the right way the other thing happens. That’s really butchering the analogy though and I don’t think it’s required. The point is to show that “not participating” is still a choice and still has an effect, so you are still playing a part just not one that’s useful.
Considering that someone can win the presidency without winning the popular vote, and that the Senate gives states with tiny populations equal power, and that the House should have over a thousand members if we kept the same ratio, sometimes it doesn’t matter if more people are pulling along with yout.
There’s so many undemocratic things built into our government - mainly to appease slaveowners - it’s really hard for me to work up any enthusiasm that my vote will do anything at all.
I can empathize with the people who have given up on voting, because I was at that point many times. Now I’ve lowered my expectations and given up hope, and I just vote because it means I don’t get told I’m not allowed to complain.
Totally agree with everything. Voting is pretty quick and easy though. I absolutely agree with people performing other actions that can possibly be more effective as well, but those take much more time and effort. Everyone should vote because, even if it doesn’t have much effect, the amount of effect it has compared to the amount of effort it takes is high.
Now that I can vote by mail I agree that the effort is worth the effect. But if I had to stand in line for hours just to see the Supreme Court or electoral college or Congress or a bunch of states jam the trolley handle in the other direction I don’t think I could bring myself to do it if it didn’t also mean I’m allowed to complain.
What bothers me, and I’ve seen expressed in other comments, is that the response to “voting doesn’t matter” or “both sides are the same” is immediate dismissal, as if nobody should have any problem with the way things work.
Even the line “If you don’t vote you can’t complain” is mean and dismissive.
You keep talking about every vote not mattering in a vote that was won by 200-some-odd people with over 3000 write-ins. That person who can make a measurable impact wouldn’t have been in the position to do anything if just a few hundred more people had believed it was hopeless and just stayed home. So how do you justify that with your beliefs?
I get that the presidential election is broken on many levels, and many people’s votes have little or no bearing on the final outcome, or that any likely outcome will even be ideal, but the implausible has happened before, depending on how people vote.
The one thing that has never improved the outcome is to shrug your shoulders and do nothing.
Yeah, and the bad outcome isn’t happening because there wasn’t enough votes against it. It happens because the votes do nothing at all and are just a strawman for the actions of the powerful.
You have more than two choices. Stop giving false information.
You really only havw two choices (for most elections) though. You can vote for the side you agree with more or not. Sure, there are lots of ways to do the latter, but it’s that. I guess you also have the choice to vote against the side you agree with more, but that’s not really a choice. In this case, it isn’t a false binary.
You can also participate in many other things outside of voting, but that’s totally separate and you can always do more separate things for anything. You can always follow a choice with other choices, but it doesn’t change the effect of the first choice.
You really only havw two choices (for most elections IN THE US) though.
ftfy
not effectively, you don’t.
Yeah, you could vote for someone who isn’t going to win (voting this way helps Trump win)
I call bullshit on voting that way helps Trump win.
Ok. You’re wrong, but you do you I guess
Well put
It’s just like the trolley problem. The stakes are made up and your decision might cause some discussion on the Internet. The real outcomes are decided by people with power and everything you see in media is a puppet show.
lol. you’re either completely delusional, or a very obvious Russian puppet.
Ah yes. Discredit your opposition with insults. Common fascist tactic.
There was no attempt to discredit. None was needed. The insults were the only point.
That’s a very strong statement, respect
it’d be cool if we could like vote for shit. But like, also fix the fucking voting system.
Would like to see more talk about that alongside voting itself. People seem too content with the shitty system we have. And i get it, it’s a kill or be killed world out there or whatever the fuck, but like, we should have standards also.
Currently our standard is “literally fucking doing the bare minimum possible” and i honestly just cant fucking take this shit seriously anymore.
the “Voting is Not Harm Reduction” article is possibly the most covert insidious thing that’s happened to online political discourse since 2019.
somehow, it’s managed to SEO weasel its way on top of every other article since the dawn of the internet for the search terms “voting harm reduction” and similar. and not just once, but reposted to every corner of the internet imaginable. literally try it now, if you set your google search to find articles before February 5, 2020, you will see inumerable articles with diversity of positions on the topic. after that? literally just the same article reposted and crosslisted, with the occasional reddit/twitter/tumblr comment thread.
it’s not even a bad article per se, it’s just indecently self-contradictory as OOP says, admitting at the beginning that small rights can be preserved by engaging in voting, and then pulling a 180 and accusing those who vote of perpetuating white supremacy.
like i get it, harm reduction has a specific meaning originating in addiction treatment. but for heavens sake, this flub of language doesn’t mean you should throw away one of the only miniscule rights the oppressor class has granted you to help your neighbors.
editing to add this comment thread and article which i think give helpful insight.
Your voting system is so fucked. Like voting should be something that people like to do. I want to vote for people that align with my values the most. But no, you have to be strategic and choose the lesser evil to not accidentally end up with fucking fsscists like Trump again. It’s fucked. Still tho, please prevent Trump.
